[Transcript] – Why The War On Cancer Has Failed & What You Can Do About It: Mistletoe, NAD, Deuterium Depleted Water, Melatonin, Gerson Therapy & Beyond!

Affiliate Disclosure



[00:00:00] Introduction

[00:00:51] Podcast Sponsors

[00:04:54] Guest Introduction

[00:07:42] Study on the Efficacy of Chemotherapy

[00:12:05] Reduction in Tumor Size Isn't Always A Good Thing

[00:15:29] Theories Upon Which Modern Cancer Treatments Are Based

[00:24:11] Dr. Gilbert Ling's Contributions to Current Cancer Treatments

[00:32:48] Podcast Sponsors

[00:35:08] The Form of Water While It's Inside the Cytoplasm

[00:43:18] Integrity of The DNA And Cytoplasm

[00:49:48] Gerson Therapy, Quinton, And Cancer Treatment

[00:57:20] Dr. Cowan Does Not Treat Cancer Patients in His Practice

[00:59:15] How Plants and Mushrooms Are Used to Treat Cancer

[01:03:10] Deuterium-Depleted as Treatment for Cancer

[01:09:28] For of Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide (NAD)

[01:13:25] Value of Electronic Devices for Treating Cancer

[01:15:32] Melatonin for Cancer Therapy

[01:20:56] Tom's Vegetable Powder Recipes

[01:24:53] Closing the Podcast

[01:26:29] End of Podcast

Ben:  On this episode of the Ben Greenfield Fitness Podcast…

Thomas:  Shrinking the tumor is not what a patient wants to know. They want to know how long and how well am I going to live. Has anybody ever thought this, that the problem is in the cytoplasm, the problem is in the structuring of water in the cytoplasm? Right? That's what I'm saying. But the thing that made the house is the mind of the architect. This is an expression of an idea, and the idea is the water, period.

Ben:  Health, performance, nutrition, longevity, ancestral living, biohacking, and much more. My name is Ben Greenfield. Welcome to the show.

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Hey, folks. It is Ben Greenfield here back with one of my most popular guests. Every time I get this guy on the episode, he just blows people's minds. He's been on the podcast before on the episode entitled “Why Your Heart Is Not a Pump.” We also had a pretty controversial show about the shocking story of vaccines, another show about how a plant is like an upside-down human and how to eat more vegetables. And he writes books that are always just a complete treat for me when the books arrive because they're very outside the box thinking, including the book we're going to be discussing today about cancer, but his other books are entitled, “Vaccines, Autoimmunity, and the Changing Nature of Childhood Illness.” He also has a book called “Human Heart, Cosmic Heart” and several other titles, but those two particularly, along with the one we'll talk about today, I think are fantastic places to start.

His name is Dr. Thomas Cowan, and in this new book, he gets into the war on cancer, why it's failed, and then–and this was a really interesting part for me and I've shared this book with many others who have found this to be very helpful, kind of a quite outside-the-box approach to cancer and cancer management using a host of techniques that you're likely unfamiliar with that we'll dive into on today's show. And by the way, as you're listening in, A, if you hear things like latte frothers and espresso machines in the background, it's not because my wife is making 18 different coffees while we are recording, it is because the internet failed due to a snowstorm at my house. So, I'm recording this podcast from a Starbucks. And in addition to that, everything you hear about, for the shownotes, you can find at BenGreenfieldFitness.com/biologyofcancer. That's BenGreenfieldFitness.com/biologyofcancer.

So, that all being said, Tom, welcome back to the show, man.

Thomas:  Thank you, brad. Thank you for having me. I just want to say I always look forward to the interviews with you. I do a bunch of them, but I think there's a combination of that you get it, at least you get what I'm saying maybe better than anybody else, and therefore, you ask some of the best questions. So, I just want to say that I appreciate that, so there you go.

Ben:  Well, thank you. I appreciate that and you just put yourself in the hot seat because, boy oh boy, do I have some questions for you today. I got a dog-eared copy of your cancer book. Where I'd like to start is with a little bit of a discussion about the current go-to treatment for cancer, which is chemo. It fascinated me regarding the research that you presented in the book about chemo and its efficacy or non-efficacy, and I'd love for you to get into whether chemotherapy has actually been adequately studied in terms of its efficacy, and if so, what was found and what your overall feeling on chemo is.

Thomas:  Yeah. So, basically, the history of this is that in 1971, for those of us who are old enough to remember, Nixon announced the war on cancer. Basically, at the time, they said, “We now know what causes cancer. Therefore, we can treat it. And so, give us 10 years and we'll spend whatever we need and cancer will not be a problem anymore for the citizens of the United States.” So, that was 1971, and I don't think it would take a whole lot to convince people that that didn't actually happen. The statistics are of course elusive, but something like one out of five people in 1971 got cancer and now it's about one out of two, maybe two and a half, so it's not like we have less cancer.

And then interesting, and this goes to your question, for the first time in the early 1990s, a guy named Ulrich Abel came out with a study. He was a German biostatistician, and he basically looked at all the studies done with chemotherapy, which of course is one of the three main weapons that's used in this war on cancer along with surgery and radiation, and just tried to answer the question, “What is the actual improvement in survival of people using chemotherapy for stage three and four cancers?” Those are the later stages. He reviewed thousands of studies and came out with the number 2.9%. In other words, after that was now 20 years of the war on cancer that the improvement with people with stage three and four cancer in their survival was 2.9%, which isn't very much.

So, of course, he was criticized and he was personally attacked and, “Who is this guy?” and blah, blah, blah. So, that went on until the early 2000s, I think the actual year. I have the reference in my book, but 2004 I think it was, the Australian government commissioned a study. Now, they're going to look at all stages of cancer, stage one through four. What effect do we see on the improvement or survival? In other words, how long people live as a result of chemotherapy. So, not as a result of better diet, less smoking, listening to Ben Greenfield podcasts, all those things, right? We're going to get away from that, just what does chemotherapy all-cause all-comers in cancer. And they came to the conclusion that the improvement was 2.3% to 2.4%. That's in the United States and Australia. Now, I don't know if it's 2.9% or 2.3%, or maybe it got worse since '93 and who knows, but it's somewhere around 2% to 3%.

Ben:  Now, that is, by the way, I think that should be casted in light that that's at a pretty dramatically decreased quality of life as well.

Thomas:  Absolutely. It's not like the people are doing better, they're, A, not living much longer. I mean, we're talking about instead of living 12 months with pancreatic cancer, you live maybe 13 months at best. And as I think you're pointing out, you're pretty miserable the entire time.

Ben:  Yeah. And as you get into in the book, some of the treatments may not actually result in a better outcome for the patient. For example, you talked a little bit about the ability to be able to shrink a tumor using some of the modern oncological methods, but in terms of that efficacy resulting to a better outcome for the patient, is that actually working like the current oncogenic treatment of something like tumor size?

Thomas:  Right. What you're talking about is there's many ways of evaluating therapies, and one of them, probably the best way, is how long do you live. Another one, there's measurements of quality of life, et cetera. The terminology here is anything that's different than measuring how long you live is what's called a surrogate study. In other words, sometimes they measure what happens to the tumor. So, what I mean by that, let's say you have a tumor in your pancreas or so, and then they come in and they say, “Oh, you have a four centimeter tumor, we can see it on the CT scan, and we give you a chemotherapy called gemcitabine and the tumor shrinks to one centimeter, and that's great because that's the whole point of the chemo is to shrink the tumor.” The problem is if you do an analysis of how long do the people live with no gemcitabine, they may live for 12 months. And then if you say, “How long do they live with gemcitabine?” it could be 11 months. Maybe with gemcitabine, it's 13 months.

But the point is shrinking the tumor is not what a patient wants to know, they want to know how long and how well am I going to live. And shrinking the tumor might be a part of it, but it also might be at the cost of, say, decreased immune function or decreased quality of life, or who knows. There's no correlation necessarily with shrinking of tumors and having a better outcome. In fact, you could have a worse outcome because now you're essentially more poisoned and your immune system can't keep it in check. And then as soon as you have to stop the chemo, it comes back worse than ever, which is exactly what you see with a lot of the treatment of cancer. They get an initial shrinkage, then the patient can't take the chemo anymore because it's killing their white blood cells, they stop the chemo, and then it rapidly progresses even faster than it would have. So, the whole thing is a failure from the patient's standpoint, but from the oncology and research community, it was a wild success. We shrank your tumor. Hallelujah.

Ben:  Now, in terms of stepping back for a moment, the majority of the oncology community presents the idea that the root cause of cancer is based on genetic mutations. So, if you can get rid of the mutated genes in someone's cancer cells or find a specific mutation that's associated with a certain type of cancer, then you could find a cure. Now, how do you feel about that entire theory upon which we are basing a lot of these treatments and medications being developed for cancer?

Thomas:  Right. That's a good question and it's really one of the central themes of my book. I mean, it is the central theme. And when I referred in 1971 they found the cause of cancer, specifically what I mean is they came up with the oncogene theory, which is also called the somatic mutation theory. Let me just describe what that means. So, all living systems have chromosomes which are housed in the nucleus of the cell. The cell is essentially made of two parts. It has a cytoplasm and then it has a nucleus. The nucleus has chromosomes, which have genes on it. In humans, there's 22 pairs of somatic chromosomes, and then an X and an X or an X and a Y, depending if you're a male or female.

So, the theory of cancer that they discovered in '71 was you have a mutation in one of the somatic chromosomes and that drives the whole process. Now, in the beginning, they said, “We think that with prostate cancer, there's going to be a specific mutation. All we have to do is find the prostate cancer mutation and then we can do something about it, we can get rid of it or give you the product that a healthy gene would have made or something.” Or they said, “That's one possibility,” or they could see possibly you have a prostate cancer, not you, but somebody, and they have million tumor cells and each one of them has the same somatic mutations. That was the theory.

What they found quickly, and I have some quotes about this in the book, is that if you look at 100 men with prostate cancer, they all have different mutations. So, some have three somatic mutations, some have 1,000, some have 962 or whatever. And then if you look at all the millions of prostate cancer cells in the one person's tumor, they themselves are incredibly heterogenous. So, one cell has six mutations, one cell has one, one cell has 30, one cell has 100, whatever. So, the whole thing becomes an unfathomable complicated mess. Meaning, you can't figure out which mutation is doing it. And then they spent literally hundreds of billions of dollars. The whole biotech industry is based on finding these mutations.

Now, there's an even deeper problem here. So, number one, it became so complicated that you just can't make any sense out of it. And as a result, after 40 some years of the war on cancer, approximately 95 or more percentage of the treatment has nothing to do with oncogenes or somatic mutations. In other words, we said we're going to study with hundreds of billions of dollars oncogenes and mutations, 40 years later, what do we do? We give you surgery, cut it out, we burn it with radiation, we give you chemo which has nothing to do with mutations, it just poisons cells.

Ben:  So, basically, you're saying is the past 50 years, we've been searching for oncogenes, which is incredibly hard to do because they're so genetically diverse among individuals, even individuals of the same type of cancer, and we are still, despite that long search for which oncogenes we can target, we're basically still using the same old thing we've been using which is basically removing via surgery, burning out via radiation, or poisoning via chemotherapy?

Thomas:  Exactly, exactly. You got it exactly right.

Ben:  Okay. So, based on this, I do want to get into some of the treatments that you discuss as potentially being more efficacious for cancer management. Now, I should mention that I've done many podcasts before on cancer. It's probably the one chronic disease or condition that I have recorded the most episodes on, and I will link to all of those if you go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com/biologyofcancer, including several episodes where we get into the idea that there is a metabolic component of cancer that is off neglected based on some of the work that Travis Christofferson has written about as far as lactic acidosis and improperly functioning cells actually resulting in a lot of these issues rather than it being a pure genetic mutation issue per se.

Now, that being said, what I would like to hear a little bit more about, Dr. Cowan, because I found this fascinating–and I realize you'd like me to call you Tom. I just have to remember to do that as we go —

Thomas:  Either ways.

Ben: –as we go along, Tom. So, you begin, before you discuss some of the very unique treatments that you proposed for cancer, you delved into the locus of cancer and you get into the work of this guy named Dr. Gilbert Ling. Now, can you describe the work of Gilbert Ling and what the heck it has to do with cancer? Because this was a huge leap for me when you start discussing it, but I was very pleased to see how you brought it full circle into treatment of cancer.

Thomas:  Right. So, if we take even a step back because I think that this will make sense of it, if we say, “Okay. So, we have these two parts of the cell. We have the cytoplasm and the nucleus, the nucleus houses the chromosomes. That's where the genes are. They're mutated. That's the cause of cancer.” Now, you can do a very simple experiment. And in Seyfried's book on the metabolic causes, he references these, and I have them in my book. It's been done over and over again. You take two normal cells and then you switch the nuclei, you can do that with a micropipette, you take the nuclei out of the normal cell and put it into another normal cell and the progeny are normal. And then you take a cancer cell and a normal cell, and you take the nucleus out of the normal cell and put it into the cancerous cytoplasm and the progeny have cancer. And then you do the reverse, and you have a normal cell and a cancer cell, and you take the nucleus from the cancer cell and put it into a healthy cytoplasm and the progeny are normal.

Ben:  That would suggest the fact that somatic mutations aren't what's driving cancer to begin with.

Thomas:  Right. They're not where the problem is, they're a downstream result, and what's so interesting is when you read these papers. In other words, the cytoplasm is the site of cancer. And these papers are so enamored of the somatic mutation, oncogene theory, that they actually, and I would say, ludicrously proposed that therefore there must be something in the cytoplasm that can heal the mutations in the nucleus, which is ridiculous.

Ben:  Right. And to reiterate what Tom is saying for those of you listening is when you transfer the nuclei from a cancerous cell into a healthy cell, that healthy cell does not get cancer, but if you were to transfer the cytoplasm from the cancerous cell, the healthy cell would develop cancer. Is that what you're saying?

Thomas:  Correct. And the way I described it in the book, it's like this old stupid story of the guy. He's looking under the streetlight and the policeman comes up and says, “What are you looking for?” He says, “My keys.” So, the guy helps him look for a while and then he says, “Well, where did you lose your keys?” He said, “Over there in the bushes.” He says, “So, why are you looking here?” He says, “Because the light's better.” So, just because the light's better, the light is better in the nucleus, it's easier to see it. That doesn't mean that's where your keys are. In fact, the keys are in the bushes and even if there's thorns and it's tricky and all that, that's where the problem is.

Ben:  So, if we assume the problem is in the cytoplasm and not necessarily in the nuclei or based entirely upon DNA mutations, then where does the work of Dr. Gilbert Ling fit into this theory?

Thomas:  Yeah. Except I just want to change one word. It's not based entirely, it's not that the mutations are a consequence, they are not the cause.

Ben:  Okay. The mutations are a consequence of an improperly functioning cell that then result in cancer forming. Almost like a plaque formation that is comprised of cholesterol particles could be a consequence of something like oxidized cholesterol, for example, but it's not the cholesterol that causes the issue in the first place?

Thomas:  Sort of. I'll leave that alone.

Ben:  Okay. Alright.

Thomas:  So, let's get into Gilbert Ling. One of the things that I try to do is not so much get out of my head, but get out of theory and get into observation. In other words, if you–let's just take breast cancer because it's easier to explain the situation with it. So, what do you notice? Forget about all the school and the book learning, et cetera. So, you have a person, a woman with a normal breast and it feels like this, and then you go to the place where there's the cancer, the tumor, and it feels totally different. In other words, it feels hard as a rock. Essentially, all cancers feel differently than the tissue around them that's normal, and specifically, they feel harder and denser and they feel sort of rock-like. And then when you do x-rays or CT scans or MRIs, this feel, the density of the tissue shows up and allows you to identify it on scans.

So, in other words, the first thing you notice, which is unmistakable and noticeable by anybody over three years old, is that, “Hey, this feels different.” Now, why does it feel different? Because it's too dense. So, then you have to get in the question, what creates the density of the tissue? In other words, why does normal breast or prostate or pancreas, why does it have a certain feel and a certain density? The answer to that is because if you take a look at the cell, so you have one cell, one breast cell, and it's next to the next one, the cells have a charge around them and they each have their own charge, and when two similarly charge cells come together, it's like putting two ends of a negative magnet together. They keep their distance, right?

Now, depending on the strength of the charge, you'll have a greater or lesser density of the tissue, which is why the liver has one density and your eye has another. All the different tissues have their own density because it's based on the strength of that repellent charge. So, then we have to ask, so where does that charge, that halo of charges around the cell come from?

Ben:  Oh, can I answer?

Thomas:  Yes.

Ben:  Just the sodium-potassium gradient?

Thomas:  Yes, exactly.

Ben:  Perfect.

Thomas:  Now, that answers one of the biggest questions in the history of biology for centuries, how do you get mammalian cells living in salty environment yet inside the cell is sodium-poor and outside the cell is sodium-rich, and inside is potassium-rich, outside is potassium-poor? And this has perplexed scientists for centuries. And then in the '50s, they figured it out. It's because there's a sodium-potassium pump in the membrane. I think three or four Nobel Prizes have been awarded for the understanding of the sodium-potassium pump, and this pump pumps the sodium out and the potassium in, and that creates a charge differential, which creates energy in the cell. It's what the characteristic of a healthy living cell is, it has this electrical charge and it allows it to do work. Everything in biology is based on this charge, and the charge is the sodium-potassium pump.

Ben:  Now, I don't want to derail us, but if you're listening in right now, rewind, listen to those 40 seconds again because this is the reason that I tell everybody who comes to me and says what biohacks do I start with, what diet do I start with, what's the perfect exercise plan, I tell them, “You have to start with the charge. You need to go outside barefoot. You need to swim in the ocean water if you can. You need to get sunlight, which allows that charge to be photonically energized. You need to expose yourself to heat, you need to expose yourself to cold, and you need to drink clean water with minerals.” I tell everybody to start there, and the reason for that is based off what Tom just explained. Everything in your body is based on this electrochemical gradient.

Thomas:  Absolutely. That's why I love being on your show, Ben, because it's brilliant, it's brilliant. You said it exactly right. Now, let me get to the next step because I'm going to now explain why you're correct on that because here's the problem, Ben. None of those things you mentioned have any effect on the sodium-potassium pump. Therefore, most scientists and doctors would say something like, “Ben, you're wrong. The sodium-potassium pump creates this charge that you rightly say is everything, and none of those things, there's no relation between standing on the earth and the sodium-potassium pump.” And they're right, but you're right because what Gilbert Ling showed was if you do the energetics, how much energy does it take to run this sodium-potassium pump, this crown jewel of American Western biology? It turns out it's about 30 times the energy that the cell has in total.

In other words, it's like a mortgage. Your mortgage is $30,000 and you make 2,000 a month, 30,000 a month. You can't run the sodium-potassium pump. There's too much energy involved. The sodium-potassium pump is a myth. There is a pump, it's like a backup generator that you rarely use. So, the question then is what is the pump? Where does this separation comes from? And he said, “It's because the contents of the cytoplasm are structured water.” In other words, gel phase water. In other words, easy water that Gerald Pollack described. And this structured water has a certain mesh size. It's like a mosquito netting, and you make the mosquito netting so it's big enough to let the air in but not too big to let the mosquitoes in.

The mesh that makes up our cells, 100% of the water in our cells is in the mesh. And by some genius of God or nature, I don't know, but somebody organized this, that the mesh is so constituted that it attaches to potassium and excludes sodium just by its arrangement, and no energy is required, and that is the sodium-potassium pump. It's a mesh inside, the mesh collects this potassium, the potassium stays inside, and the sodium goes outside. And then all these things you mentioned, earthing, swimming, hot and cold, clean water, minerals, all those have a dramatic and easily demonstrated effect on the quality and the correctness of the mesh inside our cells. If the mesh is goofy because you've never been out in the sun and the mesh disorganizes, it can't collect potassium, it can't exclude sodium, you lose your charge, and then you're a dead cell.

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This is difficult for some people to wrap their heads around because in every fundamental chemistry or biology course, we learn about the liquid, the vapor, and basically like the frozen forms that water can be in. Very few of us think of water as being able to be in a gel-like form. Very few of us think of water as being something that could be Jell-O, but that is indeed the form in which water is in the cytoplasm, correct?

Thomas:  Correct.

Ben:  Okay.

Thomas:  And it isn't you're dead.

Ben:  And that form is basically a mesh that's binding to the potassium inside the cell excluding the sodium from coming into the cell, and that's essentially crucial to maintaining this electrochemical gradient?

Thomas:  Exactly. Now, you can get into another thing. So, how does the mesh form? How does this structured water form? How does the gel form? Those are all different names for the same thing. Well, it's just like Jell-O. You take proteins like gelatin, you mix it with water, and then you heat up the mixture, and then you cool it and it forms a gel. So, the same thing happens. You have proteins inside the cytoplasm. I think they're actin because I've seen them under a microscope, and the actin interacts with water and forms a gel.

Now, the problem is you need heat. So, what does the heat do in Jell-O? It turns out that when you heat the gelatin proteins, it unfolds them. In other words, they're folded up and they can interact with water, you heat them, that unfolds them, they interact with water, and then they cool and form a gel. The problem is you can't heat your cell. I mean, not really. So, what plays the role of heat? The answer is this misunderstood molecule called ATP. ATP has nothing to do with energy. I can't say that strongly or clearly enough, but what it does because it is crucial, I didn't say it wasn't crucial, but it's not energy. What it does is it binds to the end of the proteins in the cell, it unfolds them, therefore, they interact with water, and because of that interaction, they can form a gel.

Now, here's where it gets interesting. You can demonstrate this. You put ATP, water, and proteins, and you put that in a beaker, and you put it in a lamp box and it doesn't form a gel. You take it out of the lead box and you shine sunlight on it and it forms a gel. You take it out of the lead box and put the beaker on the earth and it forms a gel. You take it out of the lead box, put your hands on it, put your dog next to it, put far infrared light and it forms a gel. And you put your cell phone next to it, the gel disintegrates.

Ben:  Mm-hmm, yup.

Thomas:  That's all you need to know about [00:38:26] ______.

Ben:  It's just scary to think about, but yeah, essentially, ATP, well it is. I mean, arguably, you could say that based on that, it is an energy currency but it's a different energy currency than many of us think about it. It's essentially the energy currency that would allow that gel to form and keep the function of the cell from collapsing. It's not necessarily an energy currency where, whatever, they–

Thomas:  Yeah, you break it down and then you deliberate certain numbers of calories. That's nonsense. It's very clear. Ling proved this over 20 years of experimentation. It binds to the proteins, unfolds them, and then you put all these free energy sources that you described, and it forms the gel, the gel excludes this sodium, collects the potassium. And then we even know that the gel determines how the DNA will express itself.

Ben:  Now, I want you to get into that because that will bring this full circle to cancer. But before you do, lest any of you be thinking that Tom's pulling this out his ass, if you go to PubMed and–for example, I'll put some links in the shownotes over at BenGreenfieldFitness.com/biologyofcancer. I mean, you can find dozens and dozens of studies, particularly from Ling and Gerald Pollack, but one is his very simple–it's a 2008, physiology of chemistry and physical medicine journal, and it's basically this study that disproves the entire membrane pump theory and confirms that what Tom just described, and that's also referred to in science as the nano-protoplasm, that that's the physical basis of life.

And you can read studies that essentially disprove much of what is still taught in high school biology, published on PubMed, but especially by Gilbert Ling and Gerald Pollack. So, understand that this is not simply Tom hypothesizing. This is stuff that has been studied and this whole idea of the way that ATP and the way that these sodium-potassium so-called pumps work has been disproven. And I'll put links to those in the shownotes. So, that being said, what does this have to do with the DNA structures in our cell, Tom?

Thomas:  Whenever you write a book, then you actually learn more about it than you ever knew before. Somebody just sent me a whole series of articles and proofs showing that they discovered what determines the expression of the DNA. In other words, you have this DNA and it's folded. I described it, it's like having the letters T, E, and A, but you can arrange those any way you want. And so, you can make tea or eat or ate. It turns out that the thing that determines which part of the DNA that will be expressed, which is in other words, what happens in the cell is the watery matrix that the DNA lives in. And they proved it without a shadow of a doubt. Again, peer-reviewed science. It's just that they don't believe the usual nonsense.

So, it's the water in the cells, and in particular now, a little bit of water in the DNA, in the nucleus that essentially determines the expression of the DNA, which is what oncogenes with the whole oncological genetic theory is all about. It has nothing to do with the genes. It has to do with the expression by the water. Now, I just will say there's an analogy here. It's like standard biology thinks that if you come to a house and you say, “Wow, that's a beautiful house,” I know what build the house, it's those bricks. And the reason you have this beautiful house is because you've got these really expensive high-quality bricks. But everybody would think, “That's ridiculous.” Now, of course, you need bricks. If you don't have the letter T or if you got a goofy DNA, then you can't make a good house. But the thing that made the house is the mind of the architect, or the builder, or whoever designed the house. This is an expression of an idea, and the idea is the water, period.

Ben:  Because that is what is allowing the three-dimensional shape of DNA and proteins to form, and when they are in that proper structure, that's how they actually function.

Thomas:  Exactly, Ben, exactly. That's why I love talking to you because you often fill in. I didn't say that, but you did, and that makes it very clear to people.

Ben:  So, that all being said, then when we get in the cancer itself and the idea of the importance of the cytoplasm and the proper formation of this intracellular gel, this form of water inside the cytoplasm, what is the next leap we make as far as how cancer would actually happen?”

Thomas:  So, something happens to deteriorate the quality. Meaning, if you could imagine a healthy mosquito netting and now somebody comes along and rips holes in it, and then you can't charge the cell, so the cells lose their charge, and therefore, they clump together and they form a tumor. Exactly what you see. And also, because the cellular replication happens in the cytoplasm, the cytoplasm is messed up because of no sun, bad food, no minerals, electromagnetic fields, glyphosate, bad emotion, the whole thing. Then you can't do the separation of the chromosomes properly, and then you get something called aneuploidy, which means an abnormal number of chromosomes, and now you've got seriously messed up cells that are clumped together, have abnormal DNA expression, they start growing in abnormal ways, and that's what we call cancer.

Ben:  And so, what you're saying, and what the basis of kind of like the second half of your book is about after you've laid all this out in detail, and I do recommend the folks read this book as well because you get in a far more detail in your book is that if you could, on a cellular level, take a cell that has degenerated into–essentially, I think what you described as an inappropriate species, a cell that's a cancer cell and you could somehow reverse that process and allow it to revert to a normal healthy cell, you would have a more efficacious treatment for cancer than the current burning radiation and cutting out that currently exists.

Thomas:  Correct. And what I tried to do was say, “Okay. If you look at this, I looked at it from a number of standpoints, like, has anybody ever thought this, that the problem is in the cytoplasm, the problem is in the structuring of water in the cytoplasm?” That's what I'm saying. And then I thought, “Okay, let's first of all look at it from a mythological standpoint. And then you see this amazing symbol of the yin and the yang or whatever they call it.” So, you have, in other words, [00:46:04] _____ is made out of two parts. There's the white part and the black part, and each part has a little hint of the other part in it. So, the cytoplasm has a little bit of DNA in it, in the mitochondria, and the nucleus has a little bit of water in it. So, you see that. And when the two are harmoniously working together, you get perfection or health or harmony. So, that's one. And then I looked at it from another one, and this may surprise people, but I looked at it from the story of Jesus, the birth of Jesus.

Ben:  Yeah. That was surprising to me.

Thomas:  It's a very interesting story because–the first time I read this, I was sort of teenager and I read the Gospel of I think Luke says, “Jesus was born from son of Joseph, who was the son of so and so and so and so, goes back.” So, that's the paternal side, and the paternal side is the sperm. That's what you get from the father. The sperm is essentially motorized DNA. Now, on the next chapter, I think it was Matthew, you say, “Okay. Mary was a virgin, so there's no Joseph. And Mary had a relationship with the angel, so it comes from another world, and that's how Jesus came about.”

And I remember thinking, well, those two are–that's a funny way to describe it, but if you think about it, Mary is the egg, is expanded cytoplasm. Right? So, you mix the DNA part, the nucleus, that's the male side, and the cytoplasm, that's the Mary side, that's the egg, and you make the birth of man, that's Jesus. I mean, what a story. Now, if you think about it, then I thought, which is the healing part of the story? And then I got into how many people have prayed to Joseph and gotten better? I never met anybody.

Ben:  Alright, it's not something that's done, especially in Catholicism, that's praying to Joseph, you're praying to Mary.

Thomas:  Right, you pray to Mary, and Mary works through the water, and then you get healed, right? Like Lourdes. Mary, bless the water. So, the cytoplasm that comes from this sort of angelic realm, or life realm, or whatever word you want to use, that's the healing part of this dynamic.

Ben:  Right. Which might actually be why, and this is probably a rabbit hole we don't have time to get into, but at Lourdes we are referring to, that's L-O-U-R-D-E-S for those of you who want to look this up. There are thousands and thousands of miraculous healings that have been recorded, specifically by the French government, and there is of course this idea of all these areas where there are natural healing springs and water that seems to have this effect on the human body that provides you with that same type of healing as you're referring to that would occur within the human body if the cytoplasm, the watery cytoplasm were also properly structured.

Thomas:  Right. So, somehow, it's a mixture of–

Ben:  And by the way, we just lost half our listeners who all of a sudden said we're complete woo, but we'll keep going anyways.

Thomas:  Yeah, but except the problem is the French government, as you said, they set up a medical council and they have certified 7,000 cases from Lourdes, which means the water has been altered somehow. I mean, I don't know how exactly, but something happened to the water and then people get healed. That's just a fact. Now, then I said, “Okay. Well, how has this happened in more modern scientific way?” So, then you look at like the Gerson diet. The Gerson diet is hundreds of people who've been helped or cured. It's basically where the whole carrot juice and coffee enema thing came about. And if you actually read Gerson, which I did 40 years ago, Gerson said, “The problem with cancer is the problem of sodium-potassium. The cell collects too much sodium. It doesn't know how to collect the potassium. And when that happens, it loses its charge and then you get cancer.” So, you detoxify the cell, you give it–he actually came up with a juicer that extracts the cytoplasm of plant juices.

Ben:  Yeah, yeah. And what's important to note about Gerson though is, A, he didn't have things like, for example, very high sodium type of compounds in that diet, like celery juice is often used nowadays I think by many people inappropriately practicing Gerson therapy. Gerson's whole protocol was based on increasing potassium and reducing sodium. So, I think another misunderstanding is that it's a completely animal-free diet because I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, he was recommending things like fresh raw liver juice and animal thyroid and things like that to help drive sodium out of the cells and bring potassium back in.

Thomas:  Exactly. Liver juice every two hours made in a Norwalk juicer. The point though, Ben, as you say, it was all about lowering the sodium and bringing potassium back in the cell. It's exactly what happens due to the structured water. So, that's one example. And then you can say this–I talked about René Quinton and his seawater, which is basically collected vortex seawater. So, what is that? That's basically nature's way of structuring water, is putting it through a vortex I talked about in the heart book. I talked about mistletoe therapy from Rudolf Steiner. When he was asked, “What does injections of mistletoe do?” He said it helps to heal your etheric body. So, what is an etheric body? That's a water body.

Ben:  Yeah, yeah. I want to slow down here for just a second because you've alluded to Gerson, you've alluded to Quinton, and I want to actually unpack these therapies just slightly more in terms of giving a brief overview of some of the things that you talked about in the second half of the book where you get into some of your therapy. So, if I could, I'd love to ask you a few questions about the specific therapies you recommend and why. So, first of all, you mentioned Quinton. I interviewed Robert Slovak, a fabulous water researcher. We discussed Quinton and kind of unpacked it in that podcast episode, essentially this idea of collecting extremely electrolytes dense seawater from a very clean source in the ocean and then a micro-filtering that and drinking it. And since my discussion with Slovak, I've actually been consuming Quinton both in the morning and in the evening, this hypertonic Quinton solution. But as far as why you would include Quinton plasma in a book on cancer, what's the idea behind the utilization of Quinton and how would that be used?

Thomas:  So, it's the only one that has no documentation that I could find of its efficacy with cancer, but I think that's partly because nobody ever tried to study it. Basically, it's just the purest example of the way to get structured water is this mineral-rich water put through a vortex, and that's essentially what Quinton is. So, if that's the point, that's what I'm saying. What I'm identifying the problem is the loss of this structure in the cytoplasm, therefore, cells clumped together, therefore, abnormal expression of DNA, therefore, aneuploidy abnormal chromosomes, all that is because of the loss of the structured water in the cytoplasm. And here's a supplement that's basically structured water.

Ben:  So, we're talking about a cancer-preventive method of doing something like a few tablespoons of Quinton in the morning or in the evening?

Thomas:  Yeah. So, I mean, I filter water and put it through a vortex, and then I put it in flask of bottles, and then I put a cap full of Quinton in every bottle and that's what we drink.

Ben:  Now, for those of you listening in, what I keep is a large glass bottle of it that I get from Robert Slovak's water and wellness website in my fridge. And then I also buy the little packets of it from Quicksilver Scientific that I take with me when I travel. So, I'll put links in the shownotes for those of you who want that. The cool thing is it also allows you to hydrate more effectively. Meaning, if you're in a situation where you're not able to drink much water before a long-haul flight or whatever where you want to sleep, it will actually allow your body to store a little bit more water. It's essentially like an electrolyte solution on steroids.

So, the next thing that you get into is something we already briefly mentioned, Gerson, and of course this idea that Gerson recommended some things that are not necessarily included in a modern Gerson therapy. But as far as Gerson therapy, is there anything people should know about that? Is it something that you heavily endorse? Or what are your overall thoughts on Gerson therapy?

Thomas:  One of my basic points of this, Ben, was that I'd been working with people with cancer now for almost 40 years with all different kinds of things. I talked about a friend of mine who originally cured himself with cancer, with testicular cancer, with the Gerson therapy. And I put out the claim that I think I'm the only person whose graduation present from medical school from his parents was a Norwalk juicer. So, we're talking 1984 I've been using the same Norwalk juicer and I got it to help cancer patients because I didn't think they could afford to buy their own juicer.

So, I'm not a novice to this, but the problem is, and essentially what I wrote the book about is because nobody really knew what they were dealing with, they had a piece of it, they said, “Well, we know there's energy you have to put in the cell to form these gels,” or, “We know you have to have pure water, or you have to bless the water, or you have to have cytoplasmic water, or whatever.” But because nobody put it together, like hopefully I did, and you could see how all these work together and why each one themselves has never been enough.

Ben:  Mm-hmm, yeah.

Thomas:  That's the problem. Nobody knew what they were dealing with, they just saw a very small piece of this puzzle. Many of them just thought, “Well, if I put people on the Gerson diet, it'll help their oncogenes.” But it's not what he said.

Ben:  Okay. Well, I want to throw this in here that sadly, I believe it's in the State of California, for example, a physician, and correct me if I'm wrong, is only allowed to treat cancer via chemotherapy. That's simply the only acceptable form of cancer treatments. It's illegal for a licensed physician to prescribe anything besides chemotherapy, radiation, or surgery for a cancer patient. Now, I know as we move forward, some people might be wondering, “Well, could I work with Tom? Are there other physicians I could work with who could manage my cancer using some of these methods?” Is this something that you practice in your own practice? Do you actually work with cancer patients?

Thomas:  No.

Ben:  Okay.

Thomas:  Because of the reason you just said, and it's very unfortunate, but that's where we're at. And so, I didn't write this because I wanted 100 new patients because I don't. I wrote this because somebody has to put this together and say this is what's happening, and it also puts it into a larger context that we're talking about water as the carrier of life. That's what we're talking about here. We're not just physical substance, we are spiritual and energetic forms, and the interface between the substance and energy or spirit or everything that's non-physical has to be through water. Therefore, if we organize it along those lines, I thought I could layout things that people could present to their oncologists, or here's what I want to do. Maybe some wealthy person will hear this and say, “I think this Cowan is onto something. Let's set up a clinic.”

Ben:  Yup. Now, you have an entire chapter as well on plant and mushroom medicines some people are familiar with in terms of the alkaloids that might be anti-carcinogenic such as chaga, for example, which I've discussed on the show before. But there are some people may not have heard of. For example, one thing that you discussed is the use of mistletoe. Why mistletoe?

Thomas:  I mean, Rudolf Steiner started mistletoe in 1920. It's been the most used, most successful natural treatment for cancer by far ever. I've treated hundreds of patients with mistletoe. I've seen everything from no help to a lot of help to people with stage 4 liver cancer get cured now for 10 years. And the point of it though is mistletoe is not perfect, it's not the end of the story. And I couldn't help but think it's because Steiner said mistletoe helps to heal the etheric body, which is the water body. And for some reason, the anthroposophical doctors are completely resistant to looking at, well, I wonder what kind of water the person has in their body. Does it have high deuterium in it? Which means, the mesh, the gel doesn't form properly. But they seem to be focused only on this one component, which is helpful for sure, should be used for sure, but because they don't see the big picture, it's nowhere near as successful as it could be.

Ben:  Now, mistletoe is something that you would consume or that you would take as an injectable. Is that correct?

Thomas:  Correct, subcutaneous. Mostly, some people do it intravenously. There's six different brands. It's a registered pharmaceutical product in Europe. I think there's more patients in Europe, cancer patients who use mistletoe therapy for cancer than any other single chemotherapy drug. I talked about in the book, I had a guy who say he's the head of the biggest ENT clinic in Alabama and he had kidney cancer that had metastasized. And he goes to his oncologist and says, “Basically, we have nothing for. You'll be dead in five years.” He happens to do a lot with dog shows in Germany and they all told him, “You got to take mistletoe. You'll be fine.” So, he takes mistletoe, we put him on mistletoe, we just hit the five-year mark, metastases are gone, he's free of cancer, never felt better. It's just a mistletoe story.

Ben:  Yeah. It kind of sucks that you cannot really–you can get it anywhere except the United States because I tried. I looked into it. There's this Helixor mistletoe is the one that you recommend. And I mean, literally, all you need are some–I believe they're just insulin syringes and the subcutaneous injection of this stuff. Super simple to do at home, totally safe, totally legal, but you can't yet do it in the U.S. Do you think that's going to change anytime soon?

Thomas:  Right. The irony is if you go to helixor.com, you can literally order any form of Helixor and they'll ship it to your door for a fairly reasonable price if you're in the Antarctica, if you're in Yemen, if you're in Syria, if you're in France, or if you're in Guatemala. But if you're in New York City or Spokane, Washington, you cannot get it.

Ben:  Yeah. That sucks.

Thomas:  Why? I don't know, I don't know. Is it going to change? I don't know, Ben, I don't know.

Ben:  Interesting.

Thomas:  Maybe.

Ben:  Alright, you alluded to deuterium and the fact that deuterium, which is a very heavy isotope that would displace hydrogen in the body, is something that could actually alter the health of the cytoplasm within a cell. Now, again in the podcast that I did with Robert Slovak in which we also talked about Quinton, he was very bullish on deuterium-depleted water, although it's expensive to purchase right now. You have to order bottles typically from overseas. To my knowledge, although there are several people working on this, including one gentleman I'm having over to my house this weekend to interview him about this currently trying to develop some deuterium-depleted water generators. It's something that's difficult to find now, but as far as a deuterium-depleted water, are you saying that it would specifically be because of the consumption of that and its effect on the cytoplasm that it could be a potential treatment or preventive health method for cancer?

Thomas:  Right. Not to sound like I'm beating the same drum or a dead horse over and over again, but if we just accept that what you need to be healthy is healthy water that forms healthy gels because they have enough ATP to structure the water and enough intracellular proteins to structure the water, and that creates the charge which is essentially the essence of life, that's the whole point. So, water is H2O, except it turns out that if you take a liter of water, one drop of that liter is something called D2O or deuterium water, which is otherwise known as heavy water. That's just because deuterium is an isotope of hydrogen. It's been around forever.

Now, the problem is deuterium interferes with, A, the ability of the mitochondria to generate ATP. That's one thing. So, that's a problem because if you don't have ATP, you can't structure your water. And B, I think even more so, deuterium water, D2O, has different physical-chemical properties. In other words, it freezes at four degrees, et cetera, so it doesn't form healthy mesh gels in the cytoplasm. And again, without healthy gels, you can't exclude sodium, you can't develop a charge, your DNA expression is off. And so, the more deuterium you accumulate over your life, the worse your gels are, the worse your energetics are, and the more prone to disease you are.

Now, you could say, “Is that Tom's theory?” No, because they've done studies. They're published on PubMed. You take somebody with prostate cancer, you give them a conventional treatment, they live 18 months. I'm not sure the exact numbers here, but they're in my book. And you give them conventional treatment, plus that you have them drink deuterium-depleted water, they live 32 months. And this has been done with prostate, it's been done with breast. There's case studies of people with metastatic cancer. All they do is they drink deuterium-depleted water that essentially makes healthier gels in their cytoplasm and the cancer goes away.

Ben:  Yeah. In your book, I think you say it's mean survival time that's increased by something about six years, which is significantly more than even something like chemo without the same disruption in quality of life. But as far as deuterium-depleted water, are you using it right now? And if so, how are you getting it or in what form are you taking it?

Thomas:  Well, I've done everything from putting gallon jars in the freezer and scraping off the ice, which doesn't really work because you get it from normal water that's about 150 and that gets it to about 148. I've worked with just about every deuterium water, depleted water company there are, at least that I know of, and none of them quite get it right. They put it in plastic bottles or it just–all I could say is right now, it's a pain in the ass. And so, I have drunk a lot of deuterium-depleted water. I'm not doing it now, but I'm actively working with two other companies to see if we can get this right and get the weighted glass jars and have people have a range of different parts per million so they can step down and do it properly. That's just something that somebody needs to step up and do this.

Ben:  Yeah. Well, hopefully, I'll be one of the people who helps to make that happen because I'm actively investigating some of these different forms of deuterium-depleted water generators and interviewing folks. I do a lot of investing in the health and fitness space too and I would certainly be an investor in a form of DDW because I think it is going to take the wellness world by storm over the next decade.

Thomas:  Yes. I do, too.

Ben:  Very similar–oh, go ahead.

Thomas:  And prevention and treatment of cancer, it should be–I mean, I know in Hungary, if you have a dog that has cancer, they give the dog deuterium-depleted water. If you have cancer, or think you have cancer, or think you might get cancer, which is basically everybody, then you should drink deuterium-depleted water to get your deuterium levels which are testable down to around 135. I think that would be a simple–I mean, I say simple, but the logistics of it are going to be tricky. But the theory of it and the practice of it is very simple. You can even eat deuterium-depleted diets, which turns out fats have less deuterium than carbohydrates. So, you're more carbohydrates, the more deuterium. The more you get fuel from fat, the more deuterium-depleted water you generate in your cells. So, this will be the new–that's what you do if you have cancer.

Ben:  Right. And as you allude to in the book, another way that we can actually increase the amount of deuterium in the cells is via a certain compound that actually is unable to incorporate deuterium into its structure. It can only incorporate hydrogen into its structure, and that would be NADH, or the form of NAD that has the proton attached to it. I've talked about NAD supplementation in a lot of my podcasts in terms of its help for the mitochondria and the fact that levels of it tended deeply dramatically overage, which is why I think it's one of the better supplements that people can take, whether it's oral or IV or patch administration. You seem to, based on what I read in the book, be on the same bandwagon when it comes to the importance of NAD, but what is your take on deliverability of oral versus IV administration and what form of NAD do you personally use?

Thomas:  So, I just want to say as far as NAD and NADH, I'm not nearly the expert that I'm sure you are and Joe Mercola and other people are. But I do know a guy named Birkmayer whose father developed NADH therapy for neurodegenerative disease and Parkinson's back in, I think it was Austria in the '50s, and the effect on Parkinson's is dramatic. And eventually, they came up with a reduced form of NAD called NADH, which they have number of studies with Parkinson's, with cancer patients, with prostate hypertrophy, with chronic fatigue, with fibromyalgia. And it's all very simple. The rate-limiting step–and again, let's put it in context. If you have the right hydrogen water in your cells, H2O, that's structured properly, you're a healthy person. As soon as you put junk in there, as soon as you put electromagnetic fields, as soon as you deteriorate the gels, you get sick.

The other thing you need is ATP, which is formed in the mitochondria, which is why there's a connection. And the rate-limiting step in the formation of ATP is the hydrogen, and the main hydrogen donor is NADH. Well, NADH lets it get absorbed into the cell, into the mitochondria. It donates the hydrogen and allows the energy generation to go as needed. And therefore, you also form hydrogen water or H2O, which then is able to be structured properly.

Ben:  Okay. So, are you using oral NADH?

Thomas:  Oral Birkmayer NADH, yes.

Ben:  Really? Okay. That's interesting.

Thomas:  That's what I use.

Ben:  Yeah. A lot of folks are using NMN or NR or NAD orally, but you're actually using NADH made by this Birkmayer fella?

Thomas:  Yes.

Ben:  Huh. Interesting. So, you think that's better than just NAD, the NADH?

Thomas:  As far as I can see, the other forms never worked at all and this one is pretty dramatic.

Ben:  Okay. Gotcha. And you're taking that intravenously or orally?

Thomas:  No, orally.

Ben:  Okay. So, he's made it stable in the gastrointestinal tract orally?

Thomas:  Yes.

Ben:  Huh. Interesting. Okay. Well, I'll hunt that down and link to it in the shownotes. By the way, I should mention, kind of backpedaling just a second, you mentioned Dr. Mercola a few moments ago. He just this week alerted me to a salivary test for deuterium-depletion. I actually just did it yesterday morning, the salivary test to see what my own PPM of deuterium is. It was made by Source Energetics. So, I'll link to that in the shownotes for people who want to do a salivary test for their own deuterium levels.

Now, a few other things I wanted to ask you. There are of course a variety of different electronic devices, pulsed electromagnetic field devices, biophoton devices, these so-called Rife machines, et cetera, that produce these energy frequencies that they say can have an effect on cancer. What is your take on those?

Thomas:  So, I keep going back to this. So, what we're talking about is water in the cell. Water in the cell needs–you need ATP to unfold the proteins, you need healthy water that's not deteriorated by electromagnetic fields and has these outside sources of energy. The Holy Grail in this is, okay, let's get the best outside source of energy, and that will create the most structured healthy cytoplasm, and that's perfect health. So, people have been trying to figure this out. I don't know whether it's the blessing of Mary or a Rife machine. There's 100 other machines that I've tested. None of them, as far as I can tell, get it quite right.

I wish I could say I know the machine to use. I have a feeling it's somehow more complicated than that, and that what they're trying to do is somehow incorporate or make into a machine the energy that is life because that's what we're talking about here. Life structures the water into a usable gel. So, I don't know whether it's just a matter of blessings, or concentration, or meditation, or clearing one's internal energy field, but I can also tell you, Ben, I'm still on the lookout for here's the machine that will strengthen our life force, structure our water, and that will solve this problem.

Ben:  Okay. So, a lot of these devices you don't think they're using a proper frequency?

Thomas:  All I can say is they don't work as well as I would hope.

Ben:  Okay. Got it. Fair enough. Okay. So, a couple of other things I wanted to mention. Melatonin is often viewed as something that would be utilized for sleep, but you actually mentioned it as far as something that could be used as a cancer treatment. What's the deal with melatonin and where it would fit in? Has it ever been studied for something like that?

Thomas:  Yeah, it's been studied a lot, and some of the references are in the book. It's a very effective adjunctive therapy for just about any form of cancer. People who take melatonin particularly at higher doses have better outcomes with cancer. And again, the references and the research is in my book. But I always try to look at this from another angle, and one of the things that I learned was when you study the anthroposophy of Steiner, you learn that we have four bodies. We have a physical body that's substance, we have a water body that's the etheric body, we have a soul that's the air body, and we have a spirit that's the warmth body.

And when you sleep, the soul and the spirit separate from the living substance. And so, you're not conscious or self-conscious. That's the definition of sleep. The reason for that is it allows your water body, what Steiner called the etheric body, to actually heal your physical body when you sleep. So, you break it down during the day, and then you get rid of the thinking and the feeling body, and then your water body heals your physical body at night, and then you go back and do the whole thing all over again. As long as that's happening, you're a healthy person.

Ben:  And that's when you're going to produce melatonin, assuming you're not getting exposed to non-native electromagnetic fields while you sleep, which I think a lot of people don't realize severely suppressed melatonin production during sleep. So, if you've got your phone on, you got a Wi-Fi router on in your house, et cetera, you're not going to get half of that healing effect.

Thomas:  Right. And it was no surprise to me that the hormone that's associated with sleep i.e. melatonin has this effect on accentuating healing the water body. The way I think about these things, Ben, is a combination of what you called woo-woo or metaphorical way of thinking. And then you correlate that with the studies. So, the metaphorical way of thinking says, “Sleep heals. Sleep means your water body has the ability to heal your physical body.” So, that's the theory, and then you study it and you say, “Yup. You take 60 milligrams of melatonin. You live two times longer if you have breast cancer than if you don't.”

Ben:  Yeah. A couple of thoughts here. First of all, you do note that in the book, there's not a single parameter of cancer in terms of immune system, apoptosis, radiation, telomerases, et cetera, that are not affected by melatonin supplementation, which has also been shown to potentiate chemotherapy and stimulate tumor regression and improve survival, but the doses are much–average melatonin supplement is 0.3 to 3 milligrams. And you recommend for non-cancer that the dose is 180 milligrams before bed. And that for cancer prevention or therapy, it's actually 60 milligrams four times a day, breakfast, lunch, dinner, and bedtime. That's a lot of melatonin.

Thomas:  It is, and that's the one that works. I mean, that's what the studies show.

Ben:  Wow. Amazing. There's a form of melatonin I'm currently using. I don't remember what the dosage is. It's the one made by Quicksilver, the same folks where I get that Quinton from. It's very efficacious, a little spray sublingually. I use it when I travel, [01:19:40] ______ like a light. I've never used it in the dosages that you're recommending. That's through the roof. But that's interesting as far as dosages. And the other thing that I wanted to mention is that you're getting the idea that during sleep, according to Rudolf Steiner's teachings that you're almost in kind of like that comatose state where the ego is actually stepping aside and you're able to heal, unimpeded by your feeling and your thinking self.

It's very interesting that something similar happens in a plant medicine journey, such as with the use of anything from ketamine to MDMA to ayahuasca and beyond. And so, I'd wonder if some of those same type of healing effects or one of the reasons that some of those treatments are so effective on things like trauma would also allow some of those same effects to take place as far as allowing the body to heal in a way that Rudolf Steiner teaches.

Thomas:  Yeah. I don't have any experience with that, so I'm going to pass on that one.

Ben:  Okay, gotcha.

Thomas:  It could be. It's just interesting also that we call a person who's always in that state, we call them a vegetable.

Ben:  Yeah.

Thomas:  Their plant.

Ben:  That's true, that's true. And you have a whole book about that, “How to Eat More Vegetables.” That was the first interview that I did with you, the first I learned about you. And I also began to, upon reading that book and learning about you, I am addicted to these vegetable powders that you make and that you ship out. And in your book, I thought this would be a fun treat for people, in your book, you get into how you start your day with this bone broth soup that you make, where you incorporate not only many of these vegetable powders that include compounds you talked about in the book as being efficacious for cancer, cancer prevention like burdock and then ashitaba. And we discussed many of those in the first interview that I did with you, which I'll link to over at BenGreenfieldFitness.com/biologyofcancer. But I thought it'd be fun for folks to hear about your bone broth recipe and how they could incorporate some of these powders and vegetables and healing compounds into a morning brew that I've tried a few times after reading your book and it tastes absolutely fantastic.

Thomas:  Right. And I actually stepped up my game a little bit here because I just had a birthday and my wife got me a thing called a Donabe, which is a–it's like a clay cooker from Japan that's made out of crystallized shells or something. It's really great. Anyways, basically, what I do is I get it hot, and then I put some ghee in the bottom, and then I dissolve some of our turmeric powder in the ghee. And then as soon as the turmeric is dissolved and I have cut up onions, and carrots, and greens, and chayote, and maybe five or six or seven different vegetables, and I sauté them in in the heated turmeric ghee mixture. And then when everything is soft, I put some bone broth that we make very gelatinous and fill up the pot with that. And then I put in a teaspoon of sea vegetable powder and burdock powder and ashitaba powder into that mixture of broth, and that's turmeric and ghee.

And sometimes I'll put some leftover rice, or maybe beans, or chicken, or fish, or whatever else I have and I cook that until everything is soft and mixed. And then I take a little bit of that and I put it into a bowl that has–there's a Japanese company in San Francisco that makes very naturally fermented natto and miso. So, I put it in that to get some fermented food and enzymes. And I soften the natto and miso, and then I basically put a big bowl of that. Sometimes I'll put an egg in at the end also just to add a little more protein and a little more nutrients to it. And then fill up the bowl with the soup. And then on top of that, I put one of the five or ten jars of fermented vegetables that we make from our garden, either fermented radishes, or sauerkraut, or kimchi, or whatever, and that's what I eat for breakfast, almost about 90% in the mornings.

Ben:  Dude, my mouth is watering, and it's super tasty. For those of you who want to try it, the full recipe is in the book. But again, it's ghee, turmeric, bone broth, a bunch of different vegetables, some of Tom's vegetable powders, and I'll have to look into this Japanese clay cook pot that you mentioned you called a Donabe?

Thomas:  D-O-N-A-B-E, yes.

Ben:  Okay. Cool. My wife might have one. She's got all sorts of crazy contraptions. And a lot of times I'll do a podcast, I'll be like, “Babe, we got to get a, whatever, a Norwalk juicer or we got to get a, whatever, Dutch oven.” She's like, “Yeah, we have. Yeah, we have that. That's in the closet.” She's always ahead of me. Cool. Well, we scratched the surface of what's in this book, although for those of you who think it might be intimidating, as with all of Tom's book, it's not super long. It's under 200 pages. I got through it in a week. I actually read it when I was over at the Swiss Mountain Clinic over in the Swiss Alps. It was interesting because they utilize a lot of the therapies you talked about in the book, and I would mention to the physicians and they're like, “Yeah. We actually do that.” And they have the mistletoe injections and they had all that stuff over there, so it was interesting that they were already aware of a lot of this stuff. So, it just goes to show that European biological medicine at least agrees with a lot of what you say in the book.

And as with all of our discussions, Tom, you're wealth of knowledge and I really appreciate what you're doing. So, thanks for coming on the show, man.

Thomas:  Thank you, Ben. And again, I just so appreciate your questions and your ability to put things together and your insight. It's really a pleasure to talk to you.

Ben:  Yeah. Thanks, man. I appreciate it. And again, the book is “Cancer and the New Biology of Water.” All the shownotes are at BenGreenfieldFitness.com/biologyofcancer, and I'll link to everything over there. Thank you for those of you who may have been distracted by the hubbub in the background at Starbucks for putting up with it. I think this was important enough to where I just want to get out of the house and get it recorded. So, that being said, I'm Ben Greenfield along with Dr. Thomas Cowan signing out from BenGreenfieldFitness.com. Have an amazing week.

Well, thanks for listening to today's show. You can grab all the shownotes, the resources, pretty much everything that I mentioned over at BenGreenfieldFitness.com, along with plenty of other goodies from me, including the highly helpful “Ben Recommends” page, which is a list of pretty much everything that I've ever recommended for hormone, sleep, digestion, fat loss, performance, and plenty more. Please, also, know that all the links, all the promo codes, that I mentioned during this and every episode, helped to make this podcast happen and to generate income that enables me to keep bringing you this content every single week. When you listen in, be sure to use the links in the shownotes, use the promo codes that I generate, because that helps to float this thing and keep it coming to you each and every week.


Dr. Thomas Cowan's new book Cancer & The New Biology Of Water takes a groundbreaking look at the role of water in living organisms that ultimately brings us closer to answering the riddle of the etiology of—and therapy and treatment for—cancer.

When President Nixon launched the War on Cancer with the signing of the National Cancer Act of 1971 and the allocation of billions of research dollars, it was amidst a flurry of promises that a cure was within reach.

The research establishment was trumpeting the discovery of oncogenes, the genes that supposedly cause cancer. As soon as we identified them and treated cancer patients accordingly, cancer would become a thing of the past.

Fifty years later it’s clear that the War on Cancer has failed―despite what the cancer industry wants us to believe. New diagnoses have continued to climb; one in three people in the United States can now expect to battle cancer during their lifetime. For the majority of common cancers, the search for oncogenes has not changed the treatment: We’re still treating with the same old triad of removing (surgery), burning out (radiation), or poisoning (chemotherapy).

In Cancer & The New Biology Of Water, Dr. Cowan argues that this failure was inevitable because the oncogene theory is incorrect―or at least incomplete―and based on a flawed concept of biology in which DNA controls our cellular function and therefore our health. Instead, Dr. Cowan tells us, the somatic mutations seen in cancer cells are the result of a cellular deterioration that has little to do with oncogenes, DNA, or even the nucleus. The root cause is metabolic dysfunction that deteriorates the structured water that forms the basis of cytoplasmic―and therefore, cellular―health.

Despite mainstream medicine’s failure to bring an end to suffering or deliver on its promises, it remains illegal for physicians to prescribe anything other than the “standard of care” for their cancer patients―no matter how dangerous and ineffective that standard may be―and despite the fact that gentler, more effective, and more promising treatments exist. While Dr. Cowan acknowledges that all of these treatments need more research, Cancer and the New Biology of Water is an impassioned plea from a long-time physician that these promising treatments merit our attention and research dollars and that patients have the right to information, options, and medical freedom in matters of their own life and death.

Dr. Cowan, MD, is a veteran family physician who has studied and written about many subjects in medicine, including nutrition, homeopathy, anthroposophical medicine, and herbal medicine. He is the author of Human Heart, Cosmic Heart: A Doctor’s Quest to Understand, Treat, and Prevent Cardiovascular Disease and the new book Vaccines, Autoimmunity, and the Changing Nature of Childhood Illness from Chelsea Green Publishing. He is also a founding board member of the Weston A. Price Foundation, and a frequent lecturer throughout the US and Canada. He's also the same doctor I mentioned in this Joe Rogan episode when I talked about how your “heart is not a pump.” He also produces some of the most fantastic vegetable powders in existence, which I use every day: Dr. Thomas Cowan's vegetable powders.

My previous episodes with Dr. Cowan include:

He also published the fascinating article on my website entitled:

During this discussion, you'll discover:

-Whether or not the efficacy of chemotherapy has ever been studied [7:45]

  • President Nixon announced “War on Cancer” in 1971; promised it would be gone within 10 years
  • Early 1990s, German statistician Ulrich Abelannounces 2.9% of stage 3&4 cancer patients see improvement with chemo
  • Early 2000s, Australian government commissions a study for allstages; Concluded that 2.3-2.4% show improvement
  • Decreased quality of life; marginally longer life expectancy in chemo patients

-Why a reduction in tumor size isn't always a good thing [12:00]

  • Any study not involving life expectancy is called a “surrogate study”
  • Reduction in size can result in a compromised immune system which perpetuates the need for chemo

-Dr. Cowan's thoughts on the current theories upon which modern cancer treatments are based [15:30]

  • “Oncogene” or “somatic mutation” theory came to light in 1971
    • Mutation in a somatic chromosome, which drives the cancer
  • Actual results: everyone has different somatic mutations
  • Biotech industry is based on finding problematic mutations, which are impossible to decipher
  • After 40 years of war on cancer, over 95% of treatment has nothing to do with the oncogene theory
  • Oncogenes are not the root cause of cancer when you get right down to it
  • Mutations are a consequenceof an improperly functioning cell, not the cause of it
  • When you transfer the nuclei from a cancerous cell to a healthy cell, the healthy cell will not become cancerous; however, if you transfer the cytoplasm from a cancerous cell, the healthy cell will develop cancer

Dr. Gilbert Ling's contributions to current cancer treatments [25:00]

  • All cancers feel different (rock-like) compared to other tissue
  • Cells have a charge around them, and when two similarly charged cells come together, they keep their distance
  • Strength of the charge determines the density of the tissue (why different organs have different textures)
  • Halo of charges come from sodium/potassium gradient
  • Always start with the charge: walk barefoot, swim in the ocean, sunlight, expose to heat and cold, mineral water
  • Sodium/potassium pump is a myth
  • “The contents of the cytoplasm are structured water”

-The form of water while it's inside the cytoplasm [35:10]

  • It's gel-like, not the forms we usually think
  • It's a mesh that binds to the potassium in the cell, excludes the sodium, and maintains the sodium/potassium gradient
  • Structured water forms similar to Jello
  • ATP molecule acts as the heat that activates the gel (energy currency)
  • Watery matrix the DNA resides in is what determines which part of the DNA will be expressed
  • The DNA is an expression of an “idea” or a creator, and the “idea” is the water

-How the integrity of the DNA and cytoplasm is damaged, thus enabling cancer to form [43:15]

  • Cells lose charge, clump together, form a tumor
  • Aneuploidy: the presence of an abnormal number of chromosomes in a cell
  • Reversing the loss of charge, restoring the cell would be a more efficacious treatment for cancer than radiation, surgery, chemo, etc.
  • Cytoplasm is akin to the birth of Jesus Christ
  • Lourdes healing water (in France)

-Gerson Therapy, Quinton, and cancer treatment [50:15]

  • “The problem with cancer is the problem of sodium/potassium”
  • Created a juicerthat extracts cytoplasm from fruits and veggies
  • Gerson's protocol was based on increasing potassium, reducing sodium
  • Rene Quinton's seawater (natural way of structuring water)
  • BGF Podcast w/ Robert Slovak
  • Quintonis a mineral-rich water put through a vortex

-The reason Dr. Cowan does not treat cancer patients in his practice [57:45]

-How plants and mushrooms are used to treat cancer [59:15]

  • Mistletoe is the most used, most successful natural treatment
  • To be injected subcutaneously
  • Mistletoe is not currently available in the U.S.

-Whether deuterium-depleted water could be an effective treatment for cancer [1:03:10]

  • Deuterium (D2O) interferes with the ability of mitochondria to generate ATP, and has different physical-chemical properties from water
  • Cowan is disappointed w/ the current state of deuterium-depleted water manufacturers
  • “If you have cancer, or might get cancer, you should drink deuterium-depleted water.”

-Whether oral or IV administration is optimal for Nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (NAD) [1:10:15]

-The value of electronic devices such as the Rife for treating cancer [1:13:30]

-How melatonin is used for cancer therapy [1:15:45]

-And much more…

Resources from this episode: 

– Click here to pre-order Ben Greenfield's new book “Boundless” now and to get in on the Boundless Sweepstakes!

– Book: Cancer & The New Biology Of Water

– Dr. Thomas Cowan's vegetable powders

– Study: A historically significant study that at once disproves the membrane (pump) theory and confirms that nano-protoplasm is the ultimate physical basis of life–yet so simple and low-cost that it could easily be repeated in many high school biology classrooms worldwide.

– Quinton water from Quicksilver Scientific (use code: GREENFIELD10)

– Quinton water from Dr. Slovak's Water And Wellness website (use code: GREENFIELD for a 10% discount)

– Source Energetix DDW salivary test

– Cellion Birkmayer NADH

– Quicksilver Melatonin (use code: GREENFIELD10)

– Japanese Donabe Clay Pot

– BGF Podcast w/ Robert Slovak

– Bone broth recipe:

– Ben's previous podcasts and episodes about cancer:

Episode sponsors:

Kion: My personal playground for new supplement formulations, Kion blends ancestral wisdom with modern science. Ben Greenfield Fitness listeners, receive a 10% discount off your entire order when you use discount code: BGF10.

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Ask Ben a Podcast Question

2 thoughts on “[Transcript] – Why The War On Cancer Has Failed & What You Can Do About It: Mistletoe, NAD, Deuterium Depleted Water, Melatonin, Gerson Therapy & Beyond!

  1. Victoria Milne says:

    Hi Ben!
    I wanted to purchase the quinton water, but the website says I need a practitioner? This is pretty frustrating. My GP already thinks I’m crazy! Same thing with Strophanthus which is hard to find from a reliable source. I’m seriously interested in both these products but don’t know how to access them. Any suggestions?

  2. Michael R Kramer says:


    Love the site. Have learned alot from you. This podcast was very interesting given my family history. Little confused with NAD vs NADH. Take Tru Niagen religiously. Is Dr. Cowan recommending NADH over Tru Niagen or as a complementary piece?

    Thanks for everything

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