[Transcript] – Healthy Eating & Fitness For Kids, How Unschooling Works, Top Book Recommendations, Common Kitchen Mistakes & Much More: Ben Greenfield Puts His Sons River & Terran In The Hot-Seat.

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Transcripts

From podcast: https://bengreenfieldfitness.com/podcast/lifestyle-podcasts/river-terran/

[00:00:00] Introduction

[00:02:05] Podcast Sponsors

[00:04:15] Best Breakfast to Crush the Day

[00:06:47] How to Tell River and Terran Apart, Especially On Audio

[00:08:15] Books River and Terran Like to Read

[00:19:04] Unschooling and Becoming Self-Directed Learners

[00:30:03] Podcast Sponsors

[00:32:13] cont. Unschooling and Becoming Self-Directed Learners

[00:34:55] A Typical Evening in The Greenfield Home

[00:37:35] An Average Day for River and Terran

[00:44:29] Favorites Things River and Terran Do for Their Fitness

[00:50:46] River and Terran's Diet Tips

[00:54:29] Whether or Not There Exists a Perfect Diet All Humans Should Follow

[00:57:00] River and Terran's Views On Screen Time and Video Games

[00:59:16] About the GoGreenfields Cooking Podcast

[01:09:25] Tips on Hunting and Plant Foraging

[01:12:44] How to Care for Yourself Spiritually

[01:15:27] River and Terran's Own Life Purposes

[01:16:36] River and Terran's Take on 2020 with COVID-19, Lockdowns, Masks, Etc.

[01:19:34] One thing River and Terran Think Everyone Should Know or Experience

[01:21:15] Final Comments

[01:22:30] End of Podcast

Ben:  On this episode of the Ben Greenfield Fitness Podcast.

River:  We really never stop learning. Sometimes it's true, you do learn something new every day.

Ben:  Even though it might not be something that you wake up out of bed super-duper interested in, it is important to just learn some of these things that will serve you later on in life.

River:  Yeah. It just gives you better grasp of what is around you.

Terran:  Oh, that species is poisonous. I should probably not touch that.

Ben:  I'm just super grateful for you guys.

Terran:  I'm grateful for you.

Ben:  No, I'm grateful for you.

River:  No.

Ben:  No, I'm more grateful for you.

River:  Okay. We're equal.

Ben:  Alright.

Terran:  Equal.

Ben:  Health, performance, nutrition, longevity, ancestral living, biohacking, and much more. My name is Ben Greenfield. Welcome to the show.

Well, folks, I might be biased, but I think that on today's podcast, I have interviewed my two favorite guests of all time, namely, my twin 12-year-old sons. We talked about healthy eating and fitness for kids, how unschooling works, their top book recommendations, common kitchen mistakes, a whole lot more. We just delved deep into the life of being Greenfield, son of me. I don't know if that sounded right, but it's son of me. My kids are amazing. They're unschooled, they're hyper-creative, they can survive in the wilderness with a knife, and a backpack, and a wool blanket. They know more kitchen and cooking tricks than most adults I know, and they're generally crushing life, so I figured I'd get them on the show. And this might be a good one for you to listen to with your own kids if you have kids because if I don't say so myself, they've got some interesting things to share. So, I hope that you enjoy this episode. The show notes for everything that we talked about on the show today you can find at BenGreenfieldFitness.com/gogreenfields. You can also find their podcast, which is a cooking podcast, at gogreenfields.com.

So, before we jump into today's show, you must know that, yes, we are talking about cooking quite a bit on this show, but there's also some benefits to not cooking, namely, not eating. That's right. And we have a free five-day fasting challenge that we've put together for you, me and my team at Kion. This is pretty much your last chance coming up because that starts on January 11th. So, since we are kicking this thing off on January 11th, which at the time that this podcast comes out, it's two days from now, this is your last chance to get in. You go to getkion.com/fasting-ben. That's getK-I-O-N.com/fasting-ben. It's an annual fasting challenge. We get over 20,000 people who are going to be doing this thing. You get a free eBook called “Fasting Decoded.” You get all the built-in accountability because I think that's the hardest part of fasting is just going in alone. But when you have so many other team members doing it with you, and the support, and accountability of an entire community along with a bunch of guest experts like me, and Dr. Amy Shah, and Eliza Kingsford, and my friend Joe DiStefano, all answering your burning fasting questions, makes it easy-peasy. So, check it out, getK-I-O-N.com/fasting-ben to get in on the Kion Fasting Challenge, which starts January 11th.

This podcast is also brought to you by something both my boys and I use quite a bit in the kitchen, Organifi Green Juice. I even add it to my wild plant pesto recipe, couple scoops of ashwagandha, Moringa, chlorella, matcha green tea, turmeric, spirulina, mint, beets, wheatgrass, lemon, and coconut, all blended together. You'd think it tastes horrible, all the nasty superfood stuff, but it actually tastes really good. They cracked the code on amplifying both flavor and nutrient density with their green juice. You get a 20% discount on Organifi Green. Super-versatile stuff. You can drink it, use it in recipes, eat it when you have time to eat a salad, you name it. Organifi with an “I.” Organifi.com/ben will automatically get you 20% off of anything from Organifi.

Alright. Let's go talk to my kiddos.

Alright, let's see. Do you guys have a good morning, by the way?

River:  Yup.

Terran:  Yeah.

Ben:  Get some breakfast down the hatch because we've got a super-duper enormous amount of cognitive lifting to do right now. So, did you have breakfast?

River:  No.

Ben:  You didn't have breakfast?

River:  Not yet.

Ben:  Do you guys not have breakfast a lot?

River:  Sometimes we eat breakfast.

Terran:  Sometimes, but I'm not as hungry in the morning.

Ben:  We're recording, by the way, now.

Terran:  I know. Okay.

Ben:  What would be like a go-to, like crush the day for a really good day of school or adventure for you that you would have for breakfast?

River:  Definitely some fresh break bread with some jam and butter, and then like bacon.

Terran:  And then, eggs.

River:  And eggs. Yeah, bacon and eggs do. Mostly eggs though.

Ben:  So, bacon, eggs, and then sourdough bread?

Terran:  Yup.

Ben:  That's a pretty good breakfast.

Terran:  It is.

River:  It is really good, yeah.

Ben:  How come you guys don't do smoothies like dad does?

Terran:  I like different textures of food a little bit more.

Ben:  Yeah.

Terran:  I also like the different flavors in different foods, not all kind of blended up in one.

Ben:  Didn't you guys do an episode on smoothies though?

River:  No, I don't–

Terran:  Yes, we did.

River:  We did?

Terran:  We used Organifi smoothies and we made like one of those red, and white, and green.

Ben:  Yeah. I remember you did a lot of layers and a lot of toppings. It is kind of interesting because I know that you guys and mom sometimes get mad at me after dinner when I'm cleaning up and I just put everything into one pot, like I'll take the steak, and the leftover rice, and leftover salad, and I'm like, “You know what, it's all going to wind up in the stomach anyways.” And I'll just put it in one pot and put it in the fridge. You guys get annoyed by that, don't you?

Terran:  Well, it was funny because–

River:  Everything just sticks together.

Terran:  One time you've got to smack meringues from Fleur de Sels, which is we had a podcast on that.

Ben:  Yeah. Amazing French restaurant of all places, North Idaho, and it's actually–when I first went there, sorry to take you off track, but when I first went there, I thought it was going to be like, no offense to Idahoans, but like people from North Idaho trying to do fancy French cooking, and it's actually legitimately good. People travel from all over the place to go to this restaurant on a golf course called Fleur de Sel. It's fancy French restaurant, but they make good macaroons. What did I do with the macaroons?

Terran:  You mixed them with the duck. I think mom got a pasta and we had like soggy macaroon crust.

Ben:  That's right. They handed me my duck confit because I didn't finish duck confit, which is an amazing dish of duck cooked in duck fat. And I think I just dropped your macaroons right on top of that.

Terran:  Yeah. You're [00:06:43] _____.

River:  A little soggy, but still–

Terran:  Yeah. They're still really good though.

Ben:  So, maybe it's my fault for destroying your guys' perception of what a good smoothie is by just taking wonderful food and mixing it all together to go boxes. The thing I wanted to ask you before we get too far into today's podcast is how do people generally tell you apart, like especially when they're just listening to you via audio? Like, how would you say people could best tell who's who?

Terran:  Well, we tried to say like “River,” and then say what [00:07:16] _____.

Ben:  You're Terran.

Terran:  Yeah.

Ben:  So, Terran is talking right now.

Terran:  “River, what do you like about this?” or something like that? And then he says, “Well.” So, it's kind of–

Ben:  You mean like when you're doing your podcast?

Terran:  We try to use their names, yeah, each other's names.

Ben:  Yeah.

Terran:  And then, in person, I feel like after the first month or so, you just get used to it.

River:  Yeah.

Ben:  Is it ever odd when you're a twin as far as people sometimes mistaking you for your twin? I mean, case in point, even we were just setting up to record this podcast, I'm sitting there, two of them with the microphone, and one of my sons is standing beside me. I'm like, “Terran, Terran, Terran.” And he's like, “Dad, I'm right here.” Because I was trying to call Terran to come down to record. Is that ever weird for you guys? Have you just gotten used to it?

Terran:  I'm pretty used to it by now, so I don't really mind it all because it's not [00:08:07] _____.

River:  Yeah, because if they're looking at you, you can tell that they're talking to you, not Terran, who's not in the same room.

Ben:  Yeah. Okay. Well, let's get into some interesting things for folks and they'll just have to, I guess, try to differentiate between you guys. If you, every once in a while, to establish your own independence, want to say who you are when you're talking about it.

River:  Yeah.

Terran:  Okay, okay.

Ben:  This is Terran. This is what I think. You guys can. Even though I don't think that–that might not matter that much, as long as we're putting out good information.

Terran:  Yeah.

Ben:  People can just hear what you have to say. So, the first thing I want to ask you–just an easy question, although I guess I already asked you what you like to have for breakfast. Books. You guys read a lot. Oh, everybody in our house read, except maybe mom because mom is not as into books, but even she listens to books a lot. And in the 18 years since mom and I have been married, she has started to read a lot more than she did when we were first married, just because she grew up dyslexic, and hating reading, and not a fan of books. But she's reading more. I read a ton, obviously. And you guys, like your book library is almost as big as mine in my office. So, I'm curious, because you guys do read a lot from fiction to nonfiction, to personal development, to health, what would be some of your top go-to books that you've read so far this year that you think more people should know about, particularly?

Terran:  We really like graphic novel stories like of, mini-stories inside of a graphic novel.

Ben:  Well, how would you describe a graphic novel to people?

Terran:  It's basically like a comic book, but it's a book basically with pictures in it.

River:  Yeah. It's like a book movie.

Ben:  Right.

River:  It's not like a picture book, but it's more complex, and there's more art.

Ben:  What would be an example of a good graphic novel?

Terran:  “Calvin and Hobbes” is a really classic one, but that's a comics.

River:  And there's a lot of smart humor.

Terran:  That's a comic though.

Ben:  Yeah. What's the difference between a comic book and a graphic novel?

River:  Comics are short little stories that are like three panels or sometimes like 12 panels long.

Ben:  Right. Conducive to say like the Sunday newspaper or something like that.

River:  But the graphic novel is just like a–it's like a comic, like 100 or more so pages of panels, yeah.

Ben:  It's a full book that is illustrated in comic book style in terms of the text bubbles or the speech bubbles and the graphic imagery, but it's an entire book?

River:  Yeah. So, I like graphic novels a lot because it mixes my art interest with my reading interest in a way, which is really fun.

Ben:  What would be some of the better graphic novels that you think people should check out?

River:  I think “Wings of Fire,” which is a chapter book series. They started making out graphic novels, which are pretty good. It's about dragons and stuff. And then, we recently just got into a new one called “Asterix,” which is an older one.

Ben:  Yeah. I remember “Asterix.”

River:  Yeah. That's an old one.

Ben:  Have you ever heard of “The Graveyard Book” by Neil Gaiman?

Terran:  No.

River:  Oh, wait, yeah. He's here.

Ben:  That's supposed to be extremely good. A lot of Neil Gaiman's books are good, but Tim Ferriss first turned me on to Neil Gaiman and recommended his audio version of “The Graveyard Book.” And when I looked into it, it turns out that there was a graphic novel version of “The Graveyard Book” that's supposed to be fantastic. I don't know if you guys have read it yet, have you?

River:  No. Not yet. Yeah.

Ben:  Okay. That's one we may have to add to the list. What are some other books that would go outside the realm of graphic novels that you found–whether books–so, here's the deal, just so people know. Every week, dad will get a book from my bookshelf, sometimes a few books so that you guys have a choice, and you have the assignment as part of your unschooling, and we'll get into unschooling later, to write a two-page report on that book to read it typically from a Sunday to a Sunday over the course of a week, and then to write a report on it with the idea being that not only does it allow dad to open you guys up to a lot of the interesting things that I'm reading, seeing where I folded over pages and what I've highlighted, but it also, very similar to how dad assigned you your week worth of workouts on a Sunday night, it's a way of training the reading muscle away of at a young age. And this is one of the reasons that dad wanted to begin giving you those weekly book report assignments, that idea that, “Oh, I can read a book a week. I mean, dad got to the point where I was reading a book a week when I was a kid and I got up to a book a day, which I have it, which I continued for like 20 years.”

And so, I wanted you guys to really realize that not only is writing a muscle, that if you do it regularly, you become very proficient at, but reading is also a muscle. I mean, the more you read, the better you get at comprehending information, getting through information at a relatively rapid yet efficient pace, in which you understand information. And so, you do these weekly book reports, although sometimes we'll do like a documentary, like you guys just did at the Christ review.

River:  I like that one a lot.

Ben:  It was a good documentary. But in terms of those book reports, particularly, you've done Jordan Peterson and Naval Ravikant, and a whole host of different books, but what would be any that come to mind is particularly interesting for you?

River:  Well, my first book report I really liked, “The Hero's Journey,” or, “The Writer's Journey.” I just read it because I like writing. So, it's just really cool to see all the scenes that go into writing. And you can basically pick a book off the shelf and find all the steps that are made into a book.

Ben:  Right. “The Writer's Journey,” I think that was formative for me, particularly when I got in writing fiction, like when I wrote that fiction book, “The Forest.” It's a book by Christopher Vogler. And a lot of people might be familiar with “The Hero's Journey,” right, where someone is living in an ordinary world and have a call to adventure, and they crossed the threshold, and they meet with mentors and friends, and eventually, enemies. And then, they have some kind of an ordeal in which they defeat the enemy. Sometimes they're killed and resurrected. Then they returned with the elixir. And it's this pattern, this predictable pattern, that is something you'll find in almost all of the most successful movies out. Like, all the most successful Disney and Pixar films are all “The Hero's Journey,” if you look at them carefully.

The story of Jesus Christ is like the classic “Hero's Journey.” But “The Writer's Journey” is how to take that same concept and make a book out of those steps that resonate so deeply with people. And if you wanted like a skeleton to write a successful book, or on your guys' case because I know you're working on a comic book right now, if you were to have your main character go through those steps of “The Hero's Journey,” it really appeals to people. And so, that book that you read, River, “The Writer's Journey,” was the one that you enjoyed?

River:  That was a longer report, yeah. So, I liked it a lot. That was like three pages, five, five pages.

Ben:  Yeah. It's interesting. Have you found that for either of you guys in the comic books and graphic novels that you're working on, have you been able to weave in some elements of “The Hero's Journey” or “The Writer's Journey” into those, or do you think about that?

Terran:  Yeah. Usually when I'm reading a book, sometimes it just comes to mind, I'm like, “Oh, this is kind of the scene of ‘The Hero's Journey,'” like the elixir or something like that.

Ben:  Right.

Terran:  Yeah.

Ben:  What about these comic books and graphic novels, and then we'll get back to books, appeals to you so much? Because I mean, you guys are working on these things almost every day. Kind of like Captain Underpants. River does a lot of the writing. Terran does a lot of the illustrating.

Terran:  Illustrate those a lot, too.

Ben:  Yeah. So, what is it about comic books and graphic novels that intrigue you so much?

Terran:  Well–oh, you can go. There's always a different style, which is interesting because–

Ben:  Artistic style?

Terran: Yeah. And if there's more artists working on it, sometimes you can see a different day they started working on it because those words you can't really tell that. But in a comic book, you can see a one-page they might have worked the day before, but then the next page, the style is just like maybe the tiniest bit of difference, which is interesting. And I just think that it's cool to look at the pictures and differentiate what you think it would look like with what the artist thought it would look like. And at the same time, also know the story.

Ben:  Yeah. It is interesting because you'd think something different would happen mentally when you're reading a graphic novel versus a regular book because, say, if I read “Lord of the Rings,” I'm forced to imagine and create all those characters inside of my own head in almost a sort of like dream-like imagery. And with graphic novels, very similar to a movie, the imaging is done for you by the producer or by the author, and it's interesting. I'd love to see what happens to the brain, particularly, when reading a graphic novel versus a book because there's a very interesting book that I just read called “The Lost Language of Plants.” And it gets into this idea of how television destroyed dreaming, television destroyed dreaming.

And what that book highlights is the fact that when we are parked in front of a box that for thousands of years of human development, humans never would have experienced this box that has all the images, all the sounds in very real life, very similar to what we would have experienced during a dream, but now the dreaming is done for us by a screen. And this book “The Lost Language of Plants” actually gets into some evidence that humans are dreaming less, were dreaming in less lucidity, less colors, less of all that memory consolidation and neuronal growth that occurs during normal dream cycle. Because in people who watch television quite a bit, which fortunately we don't do, but people who are watching television every night before they go to bed, it's almost like the dreams are done for them. And it makes me wonder like how the brain responds to graphic novel versus real book. Do you guys feel like your brains work differently with a real book versus novel?

River:  Well, I really like reading the book. I always like reading the book, the chapter book, before I read the graphic novel sometimes because that's kind of cool to have your imagination and then look at what the artist thought of what the book looked like. Yeah. That's always kind of fun.

Ben:  Yeah. Sometimes it bites you in the butt though when you read a really, really good book and you establish these wonderful characters and landscapes in your mind. And then, you see the movie and it's entirely different than what you would have imagined, like how Bilbo Baggins might have looked, or how Gandalf might have looked if it were “Lord of the Rings,” for example. For me personally, I watched the first “Lord of the Rings,” and you guys watched all of them, didn't you?

River:  Yeah.

Ben:  Yeah. I watched the first one and I was like, “I'm not watching the other ones because it almost destroyed the book for me.” And so, I just decided, you know what, I'm happy as a clam with these images sitting inside my head the way I would have imagined them.

River:  Yeah.

Ben:  Now, “Writer's Journey,” that's one that I–and I do think that's excellent for anybody listening in. I think that's a great, great book for producers of books, or producers of movies, shows, anything like that in general. Terran, how about you?

Terran:  I liked “The Almanack of Naval Ravikant.” That was really interesting and there's a lot of ideas and different ways to do things. It was an easier read, but at the same time, was complex, which is cool.

Ben:  Yeah. Naval Ravikant, he's a modern-day philosopher, thinker. He's a friend of mine, and he has a wonderful Twitter feed where he has these short, pithy statements that are also full of deep wisdom when you look at them and ponder a little bit more, integrate more what he has to say. I read that book when it came out, and it was like a dollar on Kindle, and I breezed through it pretty quickly, but at the same time took so much interesting information out of it. I thought, “Man, you guys would really love some of this wisdom.” Like, there was a guy I used to read called Charlie Munger. Charlie is the business associate of one of the richest man on the face of the planet, and one of, arguably, the most successful investors who has ever lived, Warren Buffett. And his right-hand man who helps him out a lot with his decision making is Charlie Munger.

And there's this book that I really enjoyed growing up. I read it I think three times in college called “The Almanack of Charlie Munger.” And this book is very similar. All of the wisdom and the sayings of Naval Ravikant, very similar to the wisdom and the sayings of Charlie Munger, kind of all rolled into one.

Terran:  Yeah.

Ben:  And was there anything in particular that you took out of that book, Terran, that you can recall?

Terran:  I was really amazed how many books he recommended in the back of his book. It was really big and was almost like the same size of the actual book.

Ben:  Right. He reads a lot.

Terran:  Yeah. There was a lot of books on there, but I also liked how the book was played out. They've put down the quote that would be in the chapter, so then it was almost like they would break down that quote for like an entire chapter, maybe two quotes, which is really amazing.

Ben:  Right, exactly. Like the ability to be able to take one saying, such as a man think, and really get into how that influences one's entire life, this idea of manifestation, and thought, and planning. And one of the things that I really like about Naval is he has this essay that I'll link to in the shownotes. By the way, everything that River and Terran and I talk about, like all the books we mention, their own cooking show, their podcasts because they have a podcast, we'll get into that in a little bit, I'm going to keep all the shownotes. If you guys are listening in, go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com/gogreenfields. That's BenGreenfieldFitness.com/gogreenfields.

And I'll link to all the books and everything else that we discuss, including this essay that I read by Naval Ravikant that says that, “No matter what you're going to do in life, like no matter what career that you're going to engage in, whether it is medicine or engineering, or whether you're going to be astronaut, or an author, or a lawyer, or whatever, there are five key core subjects that if you are proficient in those, you will succeed in just about anything in life, from a career standpoint.” Number one is reading, or being able to digest information at an efficient, somewhat rapid pace, and understand it. Hence, for example, one of the reasons that you guys do, you guys read a book a week, and you read a lot more than a book a week, but as far as the books, that data science, you read a book a week. The second is writing. The ability to be able to express one's thoughts in writing clearly, and to be able to communicate in written form, preferably long-form, written form. You guys know what I mean when I say “long-form”?

Terran:  Like more than one page and more than like a paragraph?

Ben:  More than like a tweet, right? It seems like people's attention spans are getting shorter and shorter as we communicate with like very short Instagram post or short tweets. And the history of doing longer essays, longer, more meaningful, deeper dive books that people really engage with in a deeper, more meaningful way, we've lost some of that in a culture that has become more attuned to short pieces of information, and accompanied along with that, all the notifications from Twitter, and Instagram, and Facebook, and your friend, everything else. It's really shortened attention spans and allowed us to get distracted easily. But this idea of being able to write and read, and be able to write and read in a deep and engaged way, those are two of the things that Naval says are going to really allow you to succeed just about anywhere that you go in life. And then, the other three are logic and/or computer programming. Would you guys be able to describe what you would think logic or computer programming would be?

River:  Oh, you first.

Terran:  Logic would be being able to think logically and–well, I guess that's not a very good explanation, but just being able to think of ways to fix problems if they come up quickly.

Ben:  Mm-hmm, or being able to reason in a rational manner such as A equals B, B equals C. Therefore, A equals C, right?

Terran:  Yeah.

Ben:  Or to be able to say something like, “All dogs are brown. That animal is brown. Therefore, that animal is a dog.” Would that be logically accurate?

Terran:  No.

Ben:  No. It's a logical fallacy because there might be other animals that are also brown. And that's a very simple example. But being able to form thoughts like that in your head, really, that is what computer programming is. Computer programming is just a whole bunch of “if this than that.” Or if this occurs, then I want the computer program to draw a line across the screen in this manner. Or if that occurs, I want for that line to be blue. And so, really, in an era in which knowing how to interact with computers, with apps, with technology, in a logical manner, because all machines operate on logic, actually serves you quite well in life. It also serves you quite well in being able to argue, being able to form thoughts, being able to understand if something is correct and accurate that you're reading versus a logical fallacy.

And so, logic/computer programming is the third. And then, the fourth is arithmetic, or being able to do figures, being able to mathematically calculate. And you guys do–what would you say are the core elements for you right now in terms of the way in which you are learning arithmetic or math? And then, we'll get back to [00:25:37] _____.

Terran:  Well, we do online classes with something called Mathnasium.

Ben:  What is Mathnasium?

Terran:  It's just like an online course where there's different problems, and then different sheets. It's almost like a really big worksheet, but there's like lots of them. Just keep doing that. And if you have questions and you ask them, they tell you how to do it. And you review a lot. And then, there's like a workout book, which is longer and bigger problems that take more or a while longer to figure out, and that's what that is. And then, cooking is a little bit because there's all measurements and–

Ben:  Measurements, volumes.

Terran:  Yeah.

Ben:  Building a tree fort. You guys did a lot of math doing that.

River:  Yeah.

Terran:  Yeah. That was fun.

Ben:  Yeah, yeah. Do you think that from your perspective, having gone to a traditional school, traditional private school from second through fifth grade, and now learning through unschooling, experiential-based education that has some elements of a formal education–like Mathnasium, right? You are learning from an instructor, but then you are surrounded by a lot of activities that dad gives you, whether it's calculating the tip at a restaurant, or building a tree fort, or cooking in the kitchen and doing volume metrics and calculations in the kitchen. What would you say to you leap out as the advantages of that type of experiential-based approach?

River:  Well, it gives you more comprehension of what's going to happen in life. Like in life, if you go to a restaurant, you're going to need to calculate a tip. It just gives you a better grasp of what's going to happen in life because if you go to a private school, they teach you math, but they don't really teach you what that's going to apply to in life.

Ben:  Right. What do I do with this random thing that I'm memorizing? Or, what do I do with the idea that I can calculate this story problem, but how does this apply to real life? And I think that that's a really, really important component of unschooling because you can take tests and you can learn, and you can memorize all day long. But we don't live in an era anymore where that serves one that well. Like, that's an educational model that was really good when people work in factories, right? You need to do the same thing over and over again, the same rote memorization task over and over again. Or when people needed to memorize how to get from point A to point B, or how far away the sun is from the planet Earth. But it's kind of odd.

We live in an era now in which computers carry most that information for us. You can Google a lot of that stuff pretty easily. You can have a computer do a lot of those rotes, repetitive calculations for you. And arguably, that frees up human beings to engage in more creative tasks. Like New York taxicab drivers, they've even noted that their brains are changing. The part of the brain that used to be responsible for wayfinding and direction-finding have changed because now, GPS and Google Maps, or Waze, or the iPhone built-in map setting will do that for you. But at the same time, you might think that's bad because humans are getting bad at wayfinding or bad at memorizing. Yet when you replace something like that with something that a computer can do, it frees up the human brain to do something more creative.

So, maybe that physician who, that surgeon, whose job has been replaced by a robot, who could do that surgery even better and in a more precise manner, at a more kind of like repetitive, predictable rate that allows for fewer medical errors or fewer medical problems during the surgery, well, someone might say that surgeon now, they're going to be out of a job. That's horrible. But that surgeon might be freed up to go find the cure for cancer, or to be able to go and invent some new form of surgery that's even better. And so, I think the advantages of some of the automation and some of what artificial intelligence and computers or robots can do for us outweigh the cons of human beings not being able to do this kind of like rote memorization, repetitive tasks, test-taking, that is what the modern schooling system is built upon. And by learning experientially, learning through unschooling, learning through life-based experiences, you actually create a more resilient freethinking and creative individual who's able to almost like create a job for themselves even if the computer replaces the job that they currently have.

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Alright, back to the show.

Kind of a long rabbit hole from Naval Ravikant, but that's the idea of logic and computer programming being like the fourth element in addition to reading, writing, and arithmetic that I think serves one well in life. And then, do you know what the last one is?

Terran:  Speech, I'm pretty sure.

Ben:  Yes. Rhetoric.

Terran:  Yes.

Ben:  Rhetoric/persuasion, being able to actually make a case for a point that you want to make, or being able to argue a position that you have, usually in some type of a public forum. And there's a lot of ways to do that, whether it's a speech and debate, or acting, or theater, but tell people about what we found.

Terran:  So, there is this game that we got on the phone. We don't really like being on the phones during dinner because we play games during dinner. And so, we did some digging and we found this really fun game called Rhetoric, which is basically where you roll a dice, draw a card, and you have one minute to make a speech of something that's on that card.

River:  Yeah.

Ben:  Yeah. It's a ton of fun.

Terran:  Yeah. And it's like tell a story, or like call to action, and there's lots of different things.

Ben:  Right. So, you roll the dice and the die might put you on the red square, and the red square forces you to draw a red card, and that card might say, “Tell a story.” And then, the other members of the game get to decide what topic you're going to tell a story.

Terran:  Orange juice.

Ben:  Let's say, yeah, orange juice. And then, you roll another die and it tells you whether that speech that you are going to make is going to be like the pros and cons of orange juice, or the past, present, future of orange juice, or the top three things about orange juice, and then boom, you have no time to prepare and you give a one, depending on the style of the game you're playing, a one to a two-minute speech on that topic. And it's a wonderful way to learn how to speak. Have you guys found this to be helpful for your own speaking chops?

River:  A little bit, actually. Yeah. I like the blue car, which basically is like a challenge card where it tells you what you have to talk on. But then you have to like–there is just–you got to talk on it so you can do anything almost to that, which is fun.

Ben:  Right. And what's dad always telling you during that game?

Terran:  Start your speech by saying what you're going to say and just speak by saying what you're going to say. Yeah.

Ben:  Tell them what you're going to tell them.

Terran:  Then tell them what you told them.

Ben:  Yup. Tell them, then tell them what you've told them.

Terran:  Yeah.

Ben:  Yup. And then, also kind of like our former President Trump was actually very good at, the hands, like moving the hands, having the hands visible using body language to make a point versus having the body be doing its own passive thing while your mouth is moving. And I think that game is fabulous. It's teaching a lot of really good rhetoric concepts.

But really, I mean, game theory in general, tell people what we do every single night.

River:  Pretty much every single night, other than sometimes at Christmas, we watch Christmas movies, but pretty much every night, we play some form of game, board game, yeah.

Ben:  Right. Boardgame, card game. What are some of your favorite go-tos?

River:  There's one called Quiddler, which is like Scrabble, just with cards. It's a little different, you can like go up, and then everybody, even if they have a bad hand, has to lay it on what they have and make a word out of it. We got this new one, which is really fun, called Web of Spies.

Ben:  Web of Spies, yeah.

River:  That was really strategic, and it takes a little while longer, but it's a lot like risk or chess in a way almost. And then, we got this fun art one called Telestrations.

Ben:  Mm-hmm. Like a Pictionary version of telephone. What we have, for people listening in, I think this is important for any families who want to adopt what we do and just have these fabulous, glorious, long dinner game nights, nearly every night of the week, is some of the games are fun. Some of the games are like, everybody is tired, let's go play Exploding Kittens or Unstable Unicorns, or one of these silly games that has a little bit of strategy and luck, but it is mostly just fun. Or the other thing we have are word games, right, Boggle, Scrabble, Quiddler, more kind of like grammatical or word-based games. And then, we've got game theory games like Web of Spies, or Gubs, or Risk, or Stratego, or monopoly, or even Too Many Poops.

And so, this idea of having a wide variety of games and playing them regularly, when you get down to logic, rhetoric, and game theory in general–and there's another guy I've had on my podcast before named James–I'm blanking on his name now. Anyways, I'll remember it. He's a guy who has whole articles about how to win at every game that exists. And I feel dumb now that I can't remember his name, but he's super into game theory, like basically, playing games regularly in order to make you better at just about any aspect of life. His name is James–gosh, James Altucher. I don't know why I forgot his name. James Altucher. He's got these wonderful articles and podcasts about game theory and how playing games regularly, chess, checkers, cards, and beyond, makes you better at just about anything in life. And when you look at all the games we play, they're weaving in, reading, writing, arithmetic, logic, and rhetoric. And so, yeah. I think it's a really, really great part of just our education in general.

Terran:  And it's fun.

Ben:  Yeah, yeah. Now, a lot of people might be curious when it comes to unschooling. And then, I want to talk about health and fitness, and cooking, too, because that's a big part of our lives. What would a–not there is a really super typical day, but what would, I guess, your best description of an average day look like for you?

River:  Usually, we get up, feed our animals, and eat breakfast, and then we start a school day. We check our inbox on our computers to see if Nessa, our teacher, has given us anything. And if not, we just go downstairs, do some art or play a game.

Terran:  Do piano, workout.

River:  Which the times that we don't really have anything to do, if we're done with the things that we could do alone, then we'd basically play outside and do art.

Terran:  Or make something up to do.

River:  Yeah. But usually for free time, I do the piano, workout, and shooting. Those are the three that we can just do on our own.

Ben:  Shooting your bow.

River:  Yeah.

Ben:  Yeah.

River:  And then, usually, Nessa is here by like 9:00 or 10:00. So, then she has like the list of what we should do.

Ben:  Right. Nessa is our assistant, who lives with us during the day, who helps out a ton with your guys' education, your schooling. So, we have in addition to mom and dad, Nessa, who helps plan each day out for you guys and give you a good mix of the extra-curriculars that you're interested in, like passions you might have, whether it's shooting, or exercise, or art, or whatever else you happen to be interested in the moment, along with the things that are just part of the core part of your curriculum, like Mathnasium, or Spanish, or some of these things that are I guess more formally scheduled elements of the curriculum. And then, all the play, all the creative free play, and just pursuing your own passions and interests are woven in throughout the day. And then, how late into the day are you doing these type of things?

River:  Around 3:00 to 5:00 is around when we end. Sometimes we go a little late if we have to do something like–in the next day, it has to be done. But around 3:00 to 5:00 is when we usually end.

Terran:  Yeah.

Ben:  What do you think about this idea that life is school, that there is no actual end? Like you might finish, let's say, jujitsu and Spanish by 5:00, but then you're making dinner in the kitchen, and that's more chemistry. And maybe if it's an ethnic cuisine, social sciences. And if there's a lot of measuring, math. What are your thoughts on that whole idea that life is education?

Terran:  Well, you really never stop learning. I feel like sometimes it's true, you do learn something new every day.

River:  Yeah. Like, making dinner. That's school for us because we're doing chemistry and we're doing it–

Terran:  Mom usually mixed it.

River:  Part of our podcast and stuff like that.

Ben:  Yeah. It's interesting to think about it. It's like, “Well, is life school or is school a life?” And I actually like to think that it's the former, that all of life is just one big, long educational process. And sure, especially when you're young, sometimes the education is a little bit more formalized, meaning that there are certain things that are going to serve you later on in life that you might not just wake up in the morning and be like, “Well, my entire body just really wants to go study math.” And yet you know that later in life, especially if you wanted to be, let's say like a surgeon, or an engineer, or an astronaut, or someone where math is a day-to-day part of your routine, it's going to serve you.

And it's actually really interesting because I have a podcast on unschooling that I'll link to in the shownotes. And again, those are going to be at BenGreenfieldFitness.com/gogreenfields. This idea that you learn through life and yet, for example, in the state of Washington, there are 12 core subjects that were required at the end of the year to demonstrate that you guys have been studying, reading, writing, social studies, chemistry, et cetera. And so, we keep logs, right? Like, you guys have a diary, a journal.

Terran:  Journals, yeah.

Ben:  And so, you journal each day about what you do, and then you give that to Nessa. She'll categorize it, like she'll categorize building the tree fort, or working on the tree fort as math and–

River:  Well, actually, we put on the subject, then the category, what it is, and how long we did it for. And then, we upload them to Google Drive, and then Darcy (ph) just sends it off to–

Ben:  Yeah. So, we do keep records, which is actually important just because you can get audited. And I think it is smart that we make sure that you guys are actually learning a wide range of subjects that are going to serve you later in life versus you just–it'd be cool if you could get up every single day and just work on your comic book, or just work on a graphic novel.

Terran:  My arm would get tired.

Ben:  Yeah. You might turn 18 and be like, “You know what, I feel called to be a doctor.” And then, turn around and be like, “Dad, I can't get in any medical school because all I did my entire youth was work on comic books.” And so, I try to at least allow you guys to engage in the subjects that are going to serve you later on in life, should you decide that there are other things that you want to do because I don't want you guys to turn 18 and be like, “Dad, why didn't you even tell me I needed to be good at math?” Even though it might not be something that you wake up out of bed super-duper interested in, it is important to just learn some of these things that will serve you later on in life.

And I know many successful, particularly homeschoolers or unschoolers, who will be like, let's say like 15, 16 years old, and they'll have studied a wide range of topics for the previous 10 to 12 years of their life, and they'll just like start a YouTube channel. And the YouTube channel is all music, and singing, and songwriting, and production. And all of a sudden, that is what they're doing the whole day. And you see this a lot, especially with musicians. All of a sudden, they're 17 years old and they're singer-songwriter, and that's their career. It just gradually happens that as you get older, you begin to specialize a little bit more deeply in the topics that you might feel called to from a career standpoint.

River:  Yeah.

Ben:  Do you guys want to go to college? Have you thought about that much at all?

Terran:  Sometimes. Yeah. Sometimes, and then like sometimes not for good things and bad things.

Ben:  Yeah. Well, one thing we've talked about quite a bit is liberal arts, just like a well-rounded because I know both you guys are interested in living in Moscow, Idaho, where there's a–

Terran:  Yeah.

River:  Yeah.

Terran:  The St. Andrews.

Ben:  Yeah. The new St. Andrews is liberal arts institution down there. And the idea of studying a wide range of topics, books, philosophers, great thinkers, and a wide range of subject matter for two to four years that then allows you to go forth into the world and crush just about any career you might want to go into I think is–unless you were going to college to be really specialized, like engineer, or astronaut, or physician, or something like that, I think it actually is a really good way to get a good well-rounded education that's kind of like the icing on the cake of something like an unschooling or homeschooling process leading up to that point. Yeah.

Let's pivot a little bit because lots of my listeners are into health and fitness, and we briefly touched on the fact that dad writes workouts for you guys. Like every Sunday, I sit down and I create a special workout. Usually, there's two to four workouts from breathwork to sandbags, to vibration platform, to all the Turkish getups, all sorts of things that you guys weave in throughout the week, typically like 15 to 20-minute brief workouts that you do in addition to Pomodoro breaks that you take during the school day. But in terms of what you guys think about the way that kids should move or kids should exercise, what are some of the favorite things that you do from a fitness, like from a fitness and workout standpoint, particularly, and how do you think kids should exercise in general?

Terran:  Well, I like when you tell us to make up our own workouts, and then we have to do it. And I also like doing it with you because it pushes us a little bit more.

Ben:  Yeah, yeah. Workouts with dad tend to be slightly more miserable in terms of the miserable factor.

Terran:  Only slight. Only a little. And then, also, I feel like just going outside and playing, but [00:45:40] _____ with River because we're twins, so there's two of us. So, we can do more games than like a single kid.

Ben:  Right. And when you say playing, you mean like sledding, hiking?

Terran:  Yeah. More like building ramps.

Ben:  Yeah. Just natural free play that counts as exercise versus just like a formal workout in the gym.

River:  Yeah.

Terran:  I think that's always good.

River:  Yeah, because there's a wide range of different exercises that you could do. There could be like walking outside for a little while to get like sunshine and move your legs.

Terran:  Especially when [00:46:08] _____, that's always hard to walk.

River:  Or snowball fights, like, yeah.

Ben:  Yeah. Well, that was, I mean, when we were growing up, I don't know if you guys remember this, but pretty much all the activity we do as a family is we go on walks to do animal movements. Like all you guys would do, just follow dad. And when I'd crawl like a bear, you'd crawl like a bear. Or when I'd get on my belly and crawl like an alligator, you'd crawl like an alligator. When I'd crab crawl backwards, you crab crawl backwards. Or when I jump up on a stump, you jump up on the stump. And we just play this like follow the leader. There's a guy named Darryl Edwards and he has this book called Animal–I think it's called “Animal Movements” or something like that. There's another guy named Erwan Le Corre, whose entire fitness program is just based around like moving through nature like an animal. And we did a ton of that with you guys growing up. And now, we do a lot more sandbags, kettlebells, things like that. But in terms of exercise, I think it's important even for adults to understand that exercises and just getting up in the morning, going to CrossFit gym, or something like that, it's weaving movement into your entire day, right?

Terran:  Yeah. Like our Pomodoro breaks that we do. It's just like every 30 minutes, you just do something active.

Ben:  Yeah. Like jumping jacks or pushups. And you guys see dad doing that as well.

Terran:  Yeah.

Ben:  Now, what about the idea of things that go beyond what people might consider to be formal exercise, but yet are still good for your health? Let's say like breathwork, for example. Tell people about breathwork and your views on that.

River:  Well, it depends if you're in the sauna. In the sauna, it's a lot harder.

Terran:  Yeah. I think it's a little bit harder.

River:  It is. But then I also think it's kind of cool because you can like–if you are something cold, you can calm your body or make it, or think about the hot things and do quicker and shorter breath, and that makes you warmer.

Ben:  Right. To amp up the body, you can activate your sympathetic fight or flight nervous system with more rigorous breathwork. Whereas, we've done some breathwork sessions before bed, like four-count in, eight-count out that cool the body down and activate the more parasympathetic rest and digest part of the nervous system. And we did–remember the breathwork course that we did? It was when the COVID pandemic started that we did every single day. Can you guys tell people a little bit more about that particular flavor of breathworks?

River:  So, I think that was a two-week or–I think it was three weeks, but started–

Ben:  It was actually five.

River:  Five weeks? Okay.

Terran:  Well, we started out–

River:  Felt like three weeks.

Terran:  For like the first two weeks, we just did like 20 minutes. But then in the end week, we did lots of 40 minutes.

River:  We got up to an hour.

Ben:  We worked our way up to an hour and it was really like holotropic-esque breathwork that I have a friend named Niraj Naik, and he's been on the podcast. He goes by the moniker, The Renegade Pharmacist. And we kind of like took elements of his breathwork course, and then we wove in some Wim Hof and some ice tub work, and we did most of our breathwork in the sauna. So, we're doing a lot of heat at the same time that we were doing the breathwork. And then, we did some bedtime relaxation breathwork sessions. Do you guys feel as though, especially for young people, that learning some elements of breathwork is important?

River:  I feel like it just makes your body feel good after you do it. If you're in the sauna, just like breathing and just like hot air and then going to the cold air. It just makes your body feel great. I also feel as though if you're stressed later on with work or with other things, then just breathing is really helpful to just calm down.

Ben:  Yeah. It's a natural freeway to be able to control stress versus like popping some pill, or taking some anti-anxiety medication, or something like that, like your breath is free, and you can play with it, too, to excite yourself or to relax yourself. And it's something that just so many kids don't learn how to have that deep intimate relationship with their breath. And I'll link in the shownotes if people want the exact breathwork course that we went through because I wrote a whole article on it. But yeah, I think breathwork is important. What else do you guys do beyond exercising breathwork that you would say help you to become healthier people?

River:  I think we have some supplements that we do just like fish oil and glutathione. We have this really cool bottle called Restore, which just heals your gut. But we just play outside a lot. We have fun, not really on–we try not to be on the computer a ton. And I also think just eating healthy is also a big part. Not like having, let's just say bread and potatoes for every meal, or just like lots of carbs or–

Ben:  How would you describe your diet to people?

River:  The breakfast is usually more eggs and more meat, but like natural eggs that we got the day off.

Terran:  Yeah.

River:  And then, lunch is normally if mom has sourdough, it's almost always sandwiches.

Ben:  But what would you put on a typical sandwich?

River:  We do Primal Kitchen Mayonnaise. Sometimes we do like a sardine or a tuna fish with mayonnaise.

Terran:  Yeah. If we don't have leftover meat, then we do Wild Planet fish, and then some sort of green, and then that's it.

Ben:  What kind of greens do you like to include in a sandwich?

River:  Pickles.

Terran:  Yeah. Like pickles, lettuce, and arugula, probably.

River:  Sometimes it's like carrots or celery.

Ben:  Yeah, yeah. And what about snacks? You guys snack much?

Terran:  When I don't have breakfast or something like that.

River:  Yeah. We like that.

Terran:  Yeah. Or for a little hungry. Sometimes when we go outside and come back in, we'll just grab a–sometimes–

Ben:  What are your favorite go-to snack foods?

Terran:  Walnuts and raisins.

River:  Yeah, right.

Terran:  Nuts and raisins is one of our favorites. We just put raisins and nuts in a bowl and just mix it up and eat those. Those are always good. And then, we have rice crackers. So, there's like a sesame seed rice cracker, which is always good. We would take five of those and just crunch on those. And then–

River:  That's about it. We don't really snack a ton.

Terran:  Yeah. We don't snack–

Ben:  What about beverages?

River:  Usually, it's mostly water, sometimes sparkling water, or Halo, which is really good, but yeah. And then, on birthday parties or for like fun parties, we–

Ben:  Halo is like a stevia flavored electrolyte drink, yeah.

River:  Yeah. It's actually pretty good.

Ben:  They started sponsoring dad's podcast. We have like a whole pantry full of hundreds of bottles of Halo.

Terran:  We have a lot.

River:  Yeah.

Ben:  It's pretty good though. It's like high, not to turn this into commercial, but it's like high in magnesium and electrolytes, but it doesn't have all the crap that Gatorade has. I like those as well.

River:  Yeah. I think it tastes good, too.

Ben:  I used to make cocktails at night. Like, I'll take the lemon one and put a little gin in there over some ice. I dig them.

Terran:  Yeah, yeah.

River:  And then, when we go to restaurants, we like mocktails. And they're always kind of like the bar choose. But when there's certain restaurants with mocktails that we like, we always order it. It's like wandering table.

Ben:  Yeah. Usually, when we go out, when the family goes out, we always have a cocktail and you guys have a mocktail. And usually, we'll tell the bartender, “Bring us something not super sweet, kind of bitters forward, no alcohol, and just surprise us.” And they always have these amazing like ginger with bitters and some pomegranate or–

Terran:  Yeah. They had like a mango ginger one, or like mango lime. That's really good.

Ben:  Yeah.

Terran:  And then, parties, or when just like a fun time, it's like a fruit drink. It's called like an Izze, and we like those for parties because–

Ben:  Yeah. It's like a sparkling drink with the fruit essence.

Terran:  Yeah. And then, at grandma's coffee shop, I really like their chai tea.

River:  I just drink their coconut water.

Ben:  Grandma's coffee shop. Yeah. Grandma has a coffee shop in Moscow called Bucer's.

Terran:  I really like the chai tea and the Italian sodas. Those are my favorite drinks.

River:  I usually drink coconut water there.

Terran:  Yeah. Coconut water is really good, too.

Ben:  Yeah, yeah. And what about desserts? Do you guys like any particular type of desserts?

River:  My favorite dessert is probably just ice cream because there's coconut ice cream, there's so many different types of ice cream, and so many different flavors and different types of ice cream like coconut, nut milk, and almonds. I just feel like it's a really good cold just like the nuts.

Terran:  I guess it's more of a treat because we don't really have desert a ton.

Ben:  No, we don't. Dessert is kind of like if people want dessert, you go and figure out what you could make.

River:  We like cherries.

Terran:  Cherries, yeah.

Ben:  Yeah. I know. Dad usually just grab some dark chocolates or frozen cherries. There's like some coconut ice cream. I'll sprinkle up a little protein bar on top of some coconut ice cream or something like that.

River:  Yeah. Usually, the only time we have dessert is like leftovers from a party that we had.

Ben:  Yeah. Like if we have a special party and mom makes a raw cheesecake or something like that. And I want to get into some of your guys' special recipes that you do on your podcast. But before we do that, there's a couple other things I'll touch on before we leave the diet. Do you think that there's like one perfect diet that all humans should follow?

River:  You told us the Mediterranean diet is a pretty good one, and I also agree with that since a lot of people basically originated from Mediterranean.

Ben:  Right. From the Fertile Crescent area. Yeah. It seems to agree with a lot of people from like a cardiovascular health and a mental health standpoint to eat a lot of omega-3 fatty acids from fish or from seeds and nuts, some amount of natural grains like Millet, or amaranth, or quinoa, and then lots of herbs and spices, and greens, and then lots of olive oil, and avocados. And some people with their Mediterranean, and they'll be like, “Oh, olive garden, breadsticks?”

River:  No.

Terran:  Yeah. Not really.

Ben:  All day long feta cheese. But yeah, if you look at the traditional Mediterranean diet, there's a lot of fasting.

Terran:  There's a lot of olives though.

Ben:  Yeah. And there's a lot of things that are characteristically healthy for any diet, eating with people, having long family dinners like we have, incorporating a lot of real, recognizable foods from a wide variety of sources and different herbs and spices.

Terran:  I also feel like making your food is also a good thing because you made it and it just means [00:55:56] _____.

River:  Hope you appreciate it.

Terran:  Yeah. Appreciate it more.

Ben:  Yeah. You develop a more intimate relationship with the ingredients, with what's in the food. A lot of people are afraid of food because they just don't understand what's in it or how to prepare it. And so, they don't even know what to eat because they don't know what's in what they're eating, or they'll get a packaged food, like a lot of people shop at Costco or Trader Joe's, which I used to think we're healthy places to shop. But really, all they do is bastardize food, because it's just a bunch of food out of packages. It's a real recognizable form. And furthermore, I don't know if you guys have experienced this, but when food is in boxes and packages, it's so much easier to overeat or excessively snack. Like in our pantry, it's a bunch of glass mason jars of quinoa, and beans, and rice. And you got to spend like two hours making a meal versus if it was just like a bunch of boxes of crackers and bars. You could just easily grab them and eat them without even thinking twice. Yeah. And they're not that satiating either, but they're very palatable, right? Like they're designed to make you come back over and over again to grab more and more.

River, you touched on something briefly about not spending a lot of time on computers. What are you guys' views on–like a lot of parents do have 30 minutes of allotted screen time per day or video gaming consoles, but you're only allowed the video games from 7:00 p.m. to 8:00 p.m., or some kids have phones, some don't. What are your guys' general perceptions of screen time and where it fits into your life?

River:  Usually, our screen time, we do have phones, but they don't have any games on. They're just meant for business, like as our Go Greenfield cameras.

Ben:  Well, actually, they're iTouches.

River:  Yeah.

Terran:  Yeah.

River:  And then–

Ben:  And the iTouches are for things like listening to podcasts, taking photos, recording your podcasts.

River:  One of the biggest things we use it for is for audio for GoGreenfields and for video and uploading them.

Ben:  Right. GoGreenfields being your podcast. Yeah.

Terran:  Computer-wise, we use it mostly for school. We have like one game on it and that's it. And even that comes with school. So, that's about it. That was just mostly school–

River:  Yeah. We have to do our Spanish Zoom on that. And then, Mathnasium is online [00:58:06] _____ on that, too. And I do like that, but the only problem with that is I feel like I don't like being on the computer at night at all, and I feel like the best time to do other things is in the daytime. So, it's kind of hard for me to balance that.

Ben:  Right. Yeah. And we don't have screen time rules at our house, right?

River:  Yeah, we don't.

Ben:  Yeah. It's just the deal at our house is we just don't have a lot of video games. At night, we're playing these wonderful games, or playing instruments, or reading a ton of books. And so, yeah. There's no rules in our house about screen time. You're only allotted amount of time on a video game or a phone. There's so many other useful and productive things to do that we just don't spend a lot of time on screens. We use them intelligently for school, or for dad, for writing articles and things like that. But I guess they aren't the fallback for entertainment.

Terran:  Yeah. Our TV, sometimes we watch movies, but it's only if movies that we like. We use it maybe once or maybe zero times a month. Yeah. Not even a week, more like once or twice a month.

Ben:  Yeah, yeah. I watched maybe like two movies a year.

Terran:  Yeah.

Ben:  Pretty rarely. Now, in terms of–back to diet, because this is obviously a pretty big part of your guys' life. How long have you been doing your GoGreenfields Cooking Podcast?

Terran:  I think for about like–

River:  We started when we were seven–I think eight, actually. So, I think it's four years now.

Terran:  Yeah. I think four years.

Ben:  Yeah. And when did you begin to learn how to cook?

Terran:  When we were three.

River:  Yeah. Well, we watched Mother's Day.

Terran:  Yeah. When we watched mom make eggs and we thought we could make her eggs. So, we made her eggs and they're a little bit overcooked, but we still did it pretty good.

Ben:  I remember when you expressed an interest, dad had–I had a book I was going through. It was “The 4-Hour Chef,” by Tim Ferriss, and he had like a couple pages in there on 30 different variants of scrambled eggs, like how to make Moroccan scrambled eggs, and how to make Texas-style scrambled eggs, and all the different spices and variants that you could add to eggs to convert them into a certain style of cuisine. And I remember I showed you guys that chart, and that was one of the first things you started doing was just like mixing different spices into your scrambled eggs.

River:  Yeah. One of the things was we watched mom cook, and then yeah, we always liked taking salt, or garlic powder, or some sort of seasoning, just mixing it all and then eating it.

Terran:  Sriracha.

River:  Oh, yeah. We used to take ketchup. That was one of the main things we used to do where we make ketchup, and we put faces on the eggs, and then we eat them.

Ben:  Yeah. And honestly, I think scrambled eggs are one of the perfect entry-level foods for someone to learn how to cook because they're not super expensive if you mess up, right?

River:  Yeah. Super simple.

Ben:  And you can learn a variety of different cooking techniques like over easy, or poaching, or scrambling, or omelets, and then you're learning how to incorporate different flavor profiles into the egg so that when you get your hands on a really good protein, let's say a super expensive $40 bone-in ribeye steak, you know more about what to do with it and how to change the flavor profile of it because you've gotten to practice on, say, eggs.

Terran:  Yeah.

River:  Well, eggs are simple and pretty easy to buy.

Ben:  Yeah. Especially for us because we have the chickens.

River:  Chickens, yeah.

Ben:  Yeah. Now, for the GoGreenfields show, you guys began to do a cooking podcast that, from what I recall, originated with us going to restaurants and talking about the food that we were eating, or even calling out the chefs and interviewing them here and there about the meals that they had prepared for us.

River:  Our very first was going to a pizza restaurant nearby in our community and–

Terran:  And that was the first episode ever.

River:  I want to listen to it again to see what it was like and what we're at now, but yeah.

Ben:  Yeah. How many episodes have you guys produced?

Terran:  Over 50.

River:  Over 50, yeah.

Ben:  And in terms of some of the favorite recipes that you have created that you think if people were to listen to this show and you really wanted them to know some of the coolest recipes they could find at gogreenfields.com, what would be some of your favorite recipes that you can recall to date that you've created?

River:  We made some really good Magic Spoon, which is a really good cereal that we eat. We had an episode where we made Magic Spoon donuts.

Ben:  We had a bunch of leftover Magic Spoon cereal.

Terran:  We also made a really good episode with–these really good donuts are healthy. They weren't fried or anything.

Ben:  Yeah. Paleo-style baked. That was one of my favorite recipes that you guys did.

River:  Those were actually really good though.

Ben:  Paleo-style baked donuts. I think you used coconut flour. And then, we had like a cream cheese frosting and a cacao frosting, and that was one of your earlier recipe. Still one of my favorites. But you both have your own unique style in the kitchen. Like, Terran, what would be one of your favorite recipes or cooking styles?

Terran:  Baking is my favorite because baking is different than cooking, and it's more like chemistry and you have to get everything right, and I like that a lot better. And I feel like baking, there are different turnouts than cooking because cooking means like taking meat or seasoning it and putting it on a grill. But then baking is more like adding this component, which makes this and then baking it. And it just comes out differently with heat or a cooler.

Ben:  What would be an example of one of your favorite things to bake, particularly something that you've done for a podcast?

Terran:  We made cakes and we had to decorate them.

River:  Cake competition.

Terran:  And we didn't actually show how we made the cakes, but mine was like–I had to bake mine taller and smaller and more stiff. So, I used a little more flour and a little more baking soda to make it taller. And that was really interesting because I never–

Ben:  You mean to make it rise?

Terran:  Yeah, to make it rise more.

Ben:  Now, what about soufflé? You have a soufflé that was just–you absolutely crushed it with the soufflé. What's a soufflé?

Terran:  It's almost like a pudding, but at the same time, it's like a pastry. It's kind of a combination, but it's basically like a–

River:  It's like a delicate dish.

Terran:  Yeah. It's almost like a runny dough and you put it in a tin, and then you bake it, and it basically rises, but you have to eat it as soon as it comes out of the oven or plop down, and it's not as puffy.

River:  And the first time he made it, it was like hot chocolate with marshmallows. It's really good.

Terran:  Yeah.

Ben:  It was amazing.

Terran:  I've made it a couple more times and I failed a little bit on the second time, but then I've gotten good at it. It takes a really long time because you just stir the milk without burning it, but make them really hot, and then add eggs, and temper the eggs, and add the chocolate, and it's really hard to do, but it's really good when it [01:05:02] _____.

Ben:  What's your top baking tip for people who want to learn to bake?

Terran:  Probably not overcook it because a lot of the times, it will look like it's not done, but it is done because I made cookies for Thanksgiving and I had more butter in them than I expected. And I was used to making cookies with mom. When you touch the dough, when it's cooked, if it springs back up, that means it's done. But this was not a lot of butter in it, so it was going to be more oily and not as hard. So, when I touched it, it was still kind of mushy, so I overcooked them a little bit because the butter had to cool down to actually get hard. So, probably just pay attention to the recipe. Or once it smells done, if it's smelling a little overcooked, then it's probably time to take it out.

Ben:  And baking requires a lot more attention. The ingredient ratio is too important, right?

River:  Yeah.

Terran:  You can't mess those up.

Ben:  Right. You need more precision. How about you, River, what would be one of your favorite recipes or a signature recipe of yours?

River:  Well, I think one of my signature recipes, I really like making risotto just because it's simple, and I love the smell of cooking wine, and I love the smell of caramelizing onions. Those are both, one of my favorite smells.

Terran:  So tasty.

River:  And it tastes really fun because you can also add anything to risotto, like you could do squash and walnuts in the risotto, or you could do just like a simple cheese risotto with some sausage.

Ben:  Yeah. Almost like a carbohydrate version of scrambled eggs where you can really evolve the flavors, depending on what you add. What would be your top tip for people who wants to learn to create a good risotto? What's the key?

River:  I kind of changed mine up. My mom likes to roast the rice before I do that. I never did that, but I think you have to keep stirring, you have to pay attention for it pretty much the whole time.

Ben:  Stirring and timing.

River:  Yeah. You can't really leave it for too long.

Ben:  Care, attention. It takes a lot of attention, like mindful attention to make a risotto. That's one of the things I like about cooking. And particularly, cooking more complex foods is you do need almost like a meditative mindfulness in the kitchen and a great deal of attention paid to what it is that you're creating. Speaking of cooking tips, I remember I took you guys to Fleur de Sels, that same French restaurant, a couple of weeks ago, and the chef came out and we asked him what his top tip was, and he said, “Anytime you get your hands on a good cut.” A good cut of meat, like a really nice, say, pork chop or steak or something like that, or like a wonderful fresh-caught fish. What did he tell us?

River:  Don't add too many seasonings or anything.

Terran:  Keep it simple.

Ben:  Yeah. Perfect fit like olive oil, dill salt, done, steak, rosemary, thyme, butter, done. And so, that was his tip for us was anytime you have like a really nice piece of protein, particularly, go minimalist with it. Would you say that if along those same lines, you could share with people either one kitchen mistake you think people make most often, or one kind of big cooking tip that you could share with people from what you've learned over the years–because twice a week, or twice a month, you guys create a new podcast episode with new recipe. What would be the top mistake or the top tip that you would share with people beyond what you've already shared?

Terran:  Well, I know a mistake I make a lot is when you put all the ingredients and you mix everything up, and then while you're mixing things or doing other things, or while you're waiting for something to bake, cleaning up is really useful because everything looks cluttered and sometimes it's really hard to figure out what you're using. So, that's always a good one, or just putting away which you got out.

Ben:  Plus, it's stressful to have to sit down and eat dinner with the crazy, messy kitchen.

Terran:  Yeah.

Ben:  Yeah, yeah. I agree. Cleaning up as you go so that you have–it's the same with your workspace, like with the desk with life in general. The more neat, and tidy, and organize your workspace is, typically, the cleaner your thought patterns are.

Terran:  Yeah, yeah.

Ben:  Yeah. How about you, River?

River:  I think paying attention. There's like a couple of different ways, like paying attention to your recipe. If you skim over the recipe and then you forget what to do, you might mess up. Paying attention to how long it's cooking, when it's going to cook, and just paying attention to your fingers, too.

Terran:  Yeah. I chopped the tip of my thumb off once.

Ben:  I remember that.

Terran:  Yup.

Ben:  I remember that. Yeah.

Terran:  I couldn't [01:09:23] _____.

Ben:  Yeah, yeah. Now, in terms of the component that we weave in, you briefly mentioned that you bow hunt. I remember you guys did your first bow hunting adventure for wild pig down in Hawaii. You also do plant foraging. And I'm curious, in terms of either hunting or plant foraging, if you have any tips or special stories you would like to share with folks about the experiences that you've had with regards to those.

River:  I like going to different countries. I like when we went to Ethiopia, or I think Finland, and there's just like mushrooms and moss, and it's just a really–

Ben:  That was Finland.

River:  Really different biome and it was really cool to see all the different plants and stuff that aren't in our forest.

Ben:  So, you like going to new places and seeing the diversity of plant matter, which honestly, I think that one can only appreciate that if they've done a wide variety of plant foraging at home.

River:  Yeah.

Ben:  Right, because here, we can go outside and identify yarrow, and mint, and nettle, and dandelion, and Oregon grape root, and plantain leaf, and a wide variety of elderberries, or Oregon grape berries, or the rose hips, and things like that. Yet when we travel to, let's say, Switzerland or somewhere else, it's a different set of flora that you're surrounded by, yet you see it differently. When you walk or hike, you actually see foods growing from the earth, which if you've learned to plant forage, it's a very magical way to be able to experience God's planet when you're walking, just to be able to see, “Oh, what's that?”

Terran:  It just gives you better grasp of what is around you, but you can't–

River:  Oh, that species is poisonous. I should probably not touch that.

Ben:  Yeah, yeah. And how about when it comes to bow hunting, anything in particular that you've learned thus far in your bowhunting adventures?

River:  I feel like bow hunting is almost, not better than the shooting, but I feel like it's almost more ancient in a way because–

Terran:  Natural.

River:  Yeah, it's a little more natural because I feel like shooting, you can stay 200 yards away and still shoot a good shot and shoot on a deer, but with a bow, you have to sneak up and be really quiet or get closer because you can't go that far with an arrow.

Ben:  Right. It's a little more physical. It requires a lot more attention to your scent, to tracking the animal, to being able to camouflage yourself to the extent where you can get somewhat close. And if you guys could project into the future when it comes to something like hunting, or foraging, or anything along those lines when it comes to outdoor immersion with the foods that you might consume, what would you say you're most excited about over the next several years as far as what you can learn, or what you're looking forward to getting better at?

Terran:  I'm looking forward to going back to Hawaii and getting a bigger bore.

Ben:  A bigger bore in Hawaii.

River:  Yeah. I'm actually kind of looking forward to get my first shot on a deer because I haven't done that yet.

Ben:  Yeah. We're going out in three days.

River:  Yeah.

Ben:  Yeah, yeah. We're going after a deer in three days, a white tail.

River:  Yeah.

Ben:  Yeah.

River:  Which are really hard to because they're really sensitive.

Ben:  Yup. They're very, very alert, finicky animals. Well, between bow hunting and wild plant foraging, cooking, and visiting restaurants, it's very well-rounded way to experience the wide variety of amazing magical cuisines that we're surrounded by.

And there's something else that I wanted to touch on in the time that we have left that we haven't really talked much about. We've talked about schooling, and fitness, and diet, but what about arguably one of the most important components of being a complete human being, your spiritual health? How do you guys care for yourselves spiritually?

Terran:  Every morning, we wake up, we read our Bible.

River:  And do anything else, yeah.

Terran:  And then, usually before breakfast, we meditate with our family, and we write down what we're grateful for and who we want to pray for or serve. And then, we just go. I usually go through the day, at least once or twice, just look at nature or just pray to God or something and try to–

River:  To stop, yeah.

Terran:  And then, at the end of the night, we usually say what we did good, what we could have done better, and then what we did that was our purpose in life. Also, usually before every meal, we always pray, especially before dinner. On Sundays, we sing the doxology.

River:  Yeah. We also just listen and sing to a lot of–

Terran:  And then, we also have spiritual disciplines that we go over every week.

Ben:  The “Spiritual Disciplines Handbook,” which has been an integral part of our curriculum for our spiritual fitness is each week, we visit different topic like–

Terran:  Almost a whole year now.

Ben:  Like last week was chastity. This week is community. We've done everything from gratitude to meditation, to presence with God, to art. That's a great book, the “Spiritual Disciplines Handbook” by Adele Calhoun. And I think that that paired with our morning meditation, using that Abide app, 5 to 10 minutes of morning meditation as a family, followed by gratitude and service, writing down who we can pray for, or help, or serve that day. And then, revisiting our journals in the evening, that process of self-examination. What is it about self-examination that's so important?

River:  Well, it lets you see what your day is. So, what did you do good, so it lets you think of what–if you should do that again or like–

Terran:  It just gives you a little motion like, “Oh, that's something I did good at. Maybe I should try to do that, or try to do the same thing tomorrow.” What could you do better at, which gives you just like, “Oh, maybe I should try to fix that somehow. How could I do that different?” And then, purpose is kind of what you want to do with your life, and then trying to figure out if you did do that that day, which basically means that you did fulfill what you wanted to do with your purpose.

Ben:  Right. You're able to see where you rose to the occasion and where you could have done better. So, you learn from both your successes and your failures with that nightly practice of examine or self-examination.

And then, the last part is the purpose component. What is one way that I lived out my life's purpose today?

River:  Yeah.

Ben:  What are your guys' purposes in life right now?

Terran:  To make the love and joy of God through my writing and art.

River:  And mine is to use my art to make people feel strong emotions.

Ben:  I like those, like those. Yeah. I think that having that single, succinct purpose statement for your life is actually something that is important because that's what gets you out of bed in the morning, right? In Japan, they call it ikigai. In Sardinia, they call it the plan de vida, like the plan for your life, this idea that when you wake up in the morning, you know what it is that you're going to do with the life that God has given you, with the unique skills that God has given you. And your purpose changes from month to month or year to year, what you feel called to do. And your general-purpose statement might change but having a purpose statement and visiting that purpose statement regularly is so, so important. Just to be able to contribute to the world in a meaningful and impactful way with the life that you've been blessed with. And so, I absolutely love those spiritual practices that we weave in.

Now, the other thing that I wanted to ask you about, just because we're recording this during the pandemic, during the lockdown, what do you think about this last year, like of COVID, and lockdowns, and then masks? What's your guys' general impression of what you've experienced, what you've learned, or your take on the whole matter?

Terran:  I like seeing you more. That's my favorite thing.

River:  Plus, a lot of–

Ben:  Yeah, [01:17:01] _____ a lot more.

Terran:  And then, it's been a little interesting to see how other the people have reacted to it, or how different it is with kids and adults to see how–it's a lot harder on the adults because they have work and a lot of people under their jobs. But then with the kids, it's a little more kind of like, they have a little less responsibility on their minds, and we can do a little–we don't have as much school or sometimes lots of things are canceled, so it frees up our day a little bit. But with a lot of people, it makes them a lot more stressful. So, it's interesting to see that.

River:  I think some of it's good like you get more family and you get to be with your family more and you get to have just more togetherness. And then, some of it, I feel like it's just people staying home and just watching TV or watching news, and people not seeing their family that's farther away, like their grandma or their grandpa. They're just not being able to interact with friends and family and people.

Ben:  Yeah, yeah. I think to a large extent, what I'm hearing is is it is what you make of it to a certain extent. When you're stuck at home and unable to, say, go out in your local community and enjoy the things that we've loved to do in our local community, like escape rooms or different restaurants, or laser tag, or the trampoline park. And all of a sudden, we're home. But it is what you make of it. A man is free to choose his attitude no matter what circumstances he is given in life. And so, if we choose to play instruments, and play board games, and buy new board games, and be happy, and read more books, and just take this time as a chapter in our lives to grow together as a family or to pursue interests that we might have been too busy or too distracted to pursue without being, say, stuck at home, it is what you make of it.

And I think that that's one of my most favorite things I've experienced the past year with you guys because it really has been like a year that we've been locked down at home. We're just growing together as a family, reading new books, learning new things, learning new recipes, and learning what it's like to live almost a more simplistic and stoic life, yet still find happiness in that without having it to have to be all about where we're going to travel to next, what's the next amazing adventure we're going to go to, or where we're going to go in the city tonight. It's more almost like a Little House on the Prairie kind of thing where we're just stuck at home, but we still have had these amazing bonding experiences, which I've really enjoyed myself.

Terran:  Yeah. Me, too.

Ben:  Yeah. Now, if you were going to leave our listeners, in addition to all the tips that you have at gogreenfields.com, and the books and everything else we've talked about thus far that I'm going to at BenGreenfieldFitness.com/gogreenfields. Do you have any final tips, resources, favorite podcasts, favorite books, life tips? If you would choose one thing that you would want to tell people, even if it were some giant billboard that you'd want to put a saying on, or a book you'd want to recommend that you think everybody should read, or something that you think that everybody should experience that you've experienced that you think is crucial for people to appreciate in life, what would you share with people?

Terran:  I think one that we do a lot is just know your family and know what they don't like, know what they do like, and just be with them a lot. I think that's one that we really do a lot, and that makes us a fun family.

Ben:  Yeah. Very bonded as a family.

Terran:  Yeah. Mm-hmm. Kind of going a little off that, I just think being with people, and just knowing your friends, and knowing your family, and knowing your friends' friends and just getting to know your community and your people, and just doing the fun things with them. I feel like that's a really useful tip.

Ben:  I might teach you a new word. It's called piggybacking.

Terran:  Oh. Okay.

Ben:  You piggybacked off what River said, meaning that River talked about family, then you say piggybacking on what River said.

Terran:  Okay.

Ben:  It's kind of funny because at Kion, every morning, we have team huddles because my company is in Boulder, and so where a lot of us are operating virtually, and it seems like nearly every single huddle because we're going around asking questions. People say, “Well, piggybacking on what Bob said, or what Jill said.” It is kind of a funny phrase if you think about it, piggybacking.

Well, you guys, first of all, I really appreciate you taking the time to come on the show and join a dad here at the kitchen table. Second of all, I think that everybody listening in would really benefit from your guys' show because if anybody does like to eat healthy food, or get a glimpse into plant foraging, or cooking, or wilderness survival, a lot of the things that you guys delve into–we even have a chance to talk about probably 90% of what you guys do with your life, but I hope this is giving people a little bit of a perspective as to who the fellas are, who the masterminds are behind GoGreenfields, what some of your school, your exercise, your fitness, your health habits, your eating habits, things that my audience is interested in, looks like. And I'm just super grateful for you guys.

Terran:  Yeah. I'm grateful for you.

Ben:  No, I'm grateful for you.

Terran:  No.

Ben:  I'm more grateful for you.

Terran:  Okay. We're equal.

River:  Equal.

Ben:  Alright. Well, until next time. I'm Ben Greenfield along with River Greenfield and Terran Greenfield signing out from BenGreenfieldFitness.com/gogreenfields. You can listen to these guys' podcasts at gogreenfields.com. You can access all the shownotes at BenGreenfieldFitness.com/gogreenfields. Have an amazing week.

Terran:  Bye. Thank you.

Well, thanks for listening to today's show. You can grab all the shownotes, the resources, pretty much everything that I mentioned over at BenGreenfieldFitness.com, along with plenty of other goodies from me, including the highly helpful “Ben Recommends” page, which is a list of pretty much everything that I've ever recommended for hormone, sleep, digestion, fat loss, performance, and plenty more. Please, also, know that all the links, all the promo codes, that I mentioned during this and every episode, helped to make this podcast happen and to generate income that enables me to keep bringing you this content every single week. When you listen in, be sure to use the links in the shownotes, use the promo codes that I generate, because that helps to float this thing and keep it coming to you each and every week.

 

 

River and Terran Greenfield are my twin 12-year-old sons. They are unschooled, hyper-creative, can survive in the wilderness with a knife, backpack, and wool blanket, know more kitchen and cooking tricks than most adults (and have an amazing cooking podcast), and they are generally crushing life.

So, in this very special episode, I put my twin boys in the podcasting hot seat to discuss life, creativity, cooking, healthy eating for kids, fitness, and much more.

During this discussion, you'll discover:

-Best breakfast to crush the day…4:40

-How to tell River and Terran apart, especially on audio…6:50

  • The twins address each other by name…

-Books River and Terran like to read…8:15


-Unschooling and becoming self-directed learners…19:04

  • Essay by Naval Ravikantthat Ben mentions on the 5 core skills needed for life
    • Reading
    • Writing (long-form)
    • Logic and/or computer programming
    • Arithmetic
    • Rhetoric/persuasion
  • Poor Charlie's Almanackby Charlie Munger
  • Mathnasiumprogram River and Terran use for their schooling
  • Unschoolingallows learning how the world works alongside the subjects being learned (math, logic, etc.)
  • Advantages of AI and robots outweigh the negatives (skills becoming obsolete)
  • Rhetoric game (boardor the app)
  • Tell 'em what you're gonna tell 'em; then tell 'em; then tell 'em what you told 'em

-A typical evening in the Greenfield home…35:00

-An average day for River and Terran…37:35

-Favorites things River and Terran do for their fitness…44:30

-River and Terran's diet tips…50:45

-Whether or not there exists a perfect diet all humans should follow…54:40

  • Mediterranean dietseems more agreeable than other diets
  • Eating with people, long family dinners
  • Making your own food helps you appreciate it more
  • Easy to overeat from packages vs. food prepared yourself

-River and Terran's views on screen time and video games…57:00

  • They both have an iPod Touch, which is for business purposes (podcast)
  • Computer used mostly for school

-About the GoGreenfields cooking podcast…59:15

  • Started 4+ years ago
  • Began learning to cook at age of 3 (made mom eggs for Mother's Day)
  • The Four Hour Chefby Tim Ferris
  • Eggs are a great starting point for learning to cook
  • Favorite recipes:
  • Top baking tip from Terran: Don't overcook; don't rely on looks to determine if it's done
  • Top risotto tip from River: Keep stirring, pay attention constantly
  • Top tip from the chef: Don't add too many seasonings; keep it simple
  • Clean up as you go
  • Pay attention to recipes

-Tips on hunting and plant foraging…1:09:30

  • Do it a lot at home to appreciate the diversity in other locales
  • Bowhunting is more natural and dependent on physicality than hunting with a rifle

-How to care for yourself spiritually…1:12:45

-River and Terran's own life purposes…1:15:30

  • “To make the love and joy of God through writing and art”
  • “To use my art to make people feel strong emotions”

-River and Terran's take on 2020 with COVID-19, lockdowns, masks, etc…1:16:35

  • They enjoy seeing dad more
  • Different reactions with kids vs. adults

-One thing River and Terran think everyone should know or experience…1:19:40

-And much more!

Resources from this episode:

– River and Terran's podcast GoGreenfields

– Podcasts and articles:

– Books, graphic novels, and games:

– Food and supplements:

– Other resources:

Episode sponsors:

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